Why do any TMA practitioners have a warped perception of BJJ?

The truth is no one knows another art unless they've studied it. Personally, I have a lot of respect for BJJ, just not usually its practitioners. Even MMA to a degree – just not its public competitions (Look at history – the excesses that led to gladiatorial combat were the same excesses that led to the decline of those civilizations). Look at it like this: BJJ put itself out there to be judged, and with the way the vast majority have trained, it has been weighed and measured and found wanting. Does this mean it's the art's failure? Not at all. It's the failure of its representatives who are in it for adoration and money, and the students who don't look for quality instruction in that art.

There's a lot of BS that goes on on this board – we contend with a lot of know-nothings that have no experience at all spouting garbage based off of hype, not facts. I'm certainly no stranger to it: I have to deal with Naruto fans wanting to be "ninjers" (Can you believe people believe that, if they learn ninjutsu, they can make qi (chi) balls and hit their enemies with them???).

I think I can agree with the inexperienced fighters ending up on the ground – I end up throwing and rolling over onto a lot of inexperienced students in the Bujinkan when they don't maintain their balance while I'm their uke.

I will say this: your group [dojo/club] (Assuming, of course, that it's as good as you believe it is. This too can become a trap for martial artists.) is a rarity, just like most good examples of martial arts. I have to say this, though, and it's something I've been tossing around: profit is not a bad thing. If I spent thousands of dollars to get to the point where I can teach, then stop learning, sure, I may feel entitled to recoup my costs, and maybe for those first couple years profit is warranted. But after that, am I still growing? Do I still have a product worth making a profit on? This is a big failure of many martial arts schools – The instructor stops learning, stops growing. But, if I turn that profit into continued growth, then it's a reinvestment into the school itself, and the company can not only thrive, but ride out the lean times (like now, during the recession in the US). Don't knock profit too hard if the instructor is good. Altruism, on a timeline, benefits no one.

Look, if you really want to advance BJJ in any small way, ignore the BS, and answer questions with well thought out answers from the perspective of your art. Don't get into the trap of "us vs. them". If you're a traditionalist or a modernist, be it, fine. But see the big picture. Represent the art, and don't start following the herd that lumps people into groups that you can deflect your own fears and inadequacies (we all have them) onto.

Good question, just try not to get tied up in that mentality.

I don't have a problem with BJJ. I can't say it could or couldn't be used in real self defense as I've never studied it. However I have studied Judo and learned how to fight on the ground and still to this day put application into ground situations in the even I'm taken to the ground or the fight ends up there for any reason, so I'm not a hypocrite when it comes to what i say about ground fighting.

I think Shiro Kuma and OC Bujinkan really cracked the nail in the head with this one. I don't know if my perception of BJJ is warped or not, to tell the truth, but people do take the whole "my style is better than yours" thing way too far, especially among practitioners of combat sports, and this is ultimately what it's all about.

If a fight is always destined to be decided to who's the better grappler or submissionist then all my time striking the makiwara, ude kitae, iron palm bags, and studying kyusho and dim-mak while toughening my fingers, even being able to do finger-tip push ups (which took a long time to get to), was all a complete waste of time and absolutely meaningless.

If I'm ever appearing arrogant or warped-minded about BJJ it's only because all the drama about ground fighting used as publicity and the arrogance of certain BJJ practitioners who heinously and ignorantly call all traditional arts crap. I've never once called BJJ or MMA crap. I only question the intention of it's training, with it saying a fight should and has to be on the ground. Everyone has their own way of fighting, and I respect that, but be that as it may I can only offer my opinion on ground fighting no differently than the ground fighters opinion on stand fighting.

If a modern style martial artist, such as a BJJ practitioner, would be willing to look at the ways the traditional martial arts approaches life or death self defense in a respectable manner looking for real discernment, then I'd be willing to look into how modern styles like BJJ deal with it just the same. So far most every person I've ever met who practices BJJ and MMA would never be willing to do this.

BJJ is not alone. Martial arts in general are highly misunderstood. Bjj has shown that it is very effective in the MMA ring, because it wins matches in there. Many (I think mostly kids:..I hope) have seen and heard it works in MMA. That makes it the best for defence too right? Wrong! However not being the "best" defence does not make it useless. No art may be named the best, as all have limitations, Rolling on the ground is not the best n defence situations, but bjj has other aspects too, like throws. I never tried bjj, except to experiment with it's techniques a bit. What I tried worked very well, even though I only watched others, and was never taught. Now the UFC is what popularized bjj, and it is what is damaging it too. As coralreefer_1 pointed out, there are a bunch of folks out there "teaching" bjj who never had a bjj lesson, or very few. As soon as something becomes popular, and people smell money, they go into high gear to jump on the gravy train. Karate, TKD, and others have suffered from being popular and bjj now gets it's turn. Bjj came from judo, which seems to be having a reprieve from this BS, and it seems folks think it is better for something than bjj. I bet when a bjj guy tosses you it hurts the same as if a judo guy threw you. Preconceptions born of ignorance is the culprit. And comments or statements can also be misconstrued as bashing where no bash occurred. Sometimes a tender spot is found, and folks think they need be defencive. No defence is need unless there is an actual attack. I caught it good yesterday because some folks THOUGHT I had bashed their art, so they openly bashed mine. In the end, bjj is as good or not, as the instruction, and what you the student does with it. Everybody would do well to seek to represent their own arts in a respectable fashion, to be sure they don't contribute, accidentally or intentionally, to this misinformation. No art is best or worst, just different. This fact doesn't seem to sit too well with some, and some work with it to make all the arts better for it.

Just my thoughts.

I've come to the conclusion after some serious thought and research that there are a lot fewer Traditional Martial Artists than the number of people claiming to be TMA's. If they have a negative opinion and highly warped view of BJJ then there's a good chance they're not actually a TMA's. How many of the TC's here who are TMA's actually have a problem with BJJ? I don't.

I do recognize there are a lot of attitude problems within and towards BJJ practitioners but that's people, not the style. I studied BJJ for 4 years. I liked the style fine, but I often didn't like the people with whom I was training.

I think the guy is right to an extent. I agree that BJJ while effective as a grappling, and summission art, maybe even the best as far as technique is concerned, is by far not to be taken seriously when they star boasting of street survival. I have been to many BJJ schools, and wrestled, and watched many fighters. I have seen really good schools, and I have seen school I would have laughed if it burned to the ground. One thing to keep in mind is the seriousness an attitiude of the person. A man who love sport, will win in the ring every time, but might want nothing to do with a street fight. Other men have hard lives and only know a good *** kicking as a teacher. Some guys are maybe insecue about issues. I wouldn't mess with these less fortuinte people. They are the ones who actually wind up with reall kills. That is they kill people cause they got issues. SO please guys have fun with the BJJ thing. Peace.

I think it has to do with a few reasons.

One is that so many people make so many strange claims about BJJ like that it can defeat Karate and so many other martial arts when it is completely untrue and ignorant, and this is coming from someone who practices BJJ and Judo. The truth is that, and this has been repeated so many times, it all depends on the practitioner and not the style, other factors can even play on the outcome of a fight.

Another reason is that the Gracie family has many times said that most fights will go to the ground and with BJJ you can overcome them. There have also been so many other claims that the Gracies have made that are unfounded and because many of these claims don't have enough base many traditional martial artists just roll their eyes or see them as arrogence or ridiculous.

I remember reading about a Gracie reality show as well as a Gracie training camp online where you can become an actual black belt through the online site. This is quite annoying especially if you ever talk to someone who says he trains in BJJ and he thinks he is a great BJJ practitioner when in reality he has seen some videos on it and then gained promotion through the website. Those guys are just a bunch of idiots who will get owned by actual practitioners who take the time to practice with other guys.

This isn't 100% BJJ fault. The fault also lies in the fact that Karate and Kung Fu, as well as the other traditional martial arts that have been around for so long has been ingrained in our minds as the actual "great" self defense program. Hollywood and all these other movies that we have seen have also played a very good role because we see them doing unholy and ridiculous things like punch a guy through his chest or some other garbage that an elderly black belt in Karate will do.

I love working in BJJ and Judo and since I was younger I always like grappling so I train in that. People should train in what they enjoy doing because regardless of all styles they all ahve their pros and cons.

For the same reason that many people have a warped perception of karate ("a striking art with useless forms"), aikido ("totally useless in a 'real' fight"), taekwondo (as one Olympic commentator put it: "the world bouncing championships"), etc., etc.

The fact is that all of these, and Brazillian JiuJitsu IS misunderstood. Plus, all of these arts, and again, as well as BJJ, have legions of immature practitioners, rabid fans, and opportunistic promoters who are touting their respective arts as the ultimate martial art/combative/self defense system... and that the others are total crap. With BJJ it's especially those who like to quote the "99% of fights end up on the ground" mantra at every possible opportunity and its prevalence in the UFC as proof of its superiority over other styles, especially traditional arts. And people like this, especially on the internet, are of course the majority, and tend to be more annoying than the rabid fans of previous trends (karate, ninjutsu, aikido, taekwondo, etc.)

So it's not exactly surprising that many traditionalists feel the need to set the record straight: that BJJ is a great art, but it isn't the be-all end-all, ultimate martial art; and that more traditional styles and training methods don't necessarily ... well... suck...

Basically it's Newton's third law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Personally, though, I've found that in the real world, BJJ practitioners and TMA practitioners tend to get along fairly well. And people from both camps also seem to have a healthier appreciation of their respective training's limitations (e.g., BJJ practitioners talking about their focus on competitive setups, aikidoka talking about their lack of resistance training in most dojos, taekwondoin talking about the one-dimensional training seen in many dojang, etc.) when discussing it offline.

Bottom line is:

The BJJ/modern styles vs. traditional/classical styles issue is a touchy one; and most discussions around this subject inevitably attracts heated opinions - especially online, where respect is made unnecessary by the wall of anonymity. So, why don't we all just try to get along and stop taking this issue personally?

I am currently learning a bit of bjj with tkd. So, on a more personal level, I have nothing against it whatsoever. However, I do tend to dislike the attitudes of some people who use brazilian jiu jitsu. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a trialed and proven successful martial art in the MMA ring- that, however, does not qualify it to be the best style on earth as MMA. Again, I am not saying that bjj is in anyway bad, but I could not stand the attitude that some students have, probably passed down from the Gracies themselves. I don't doubt the Gracies are excellent grapplers but you go onto any of their site and you get what I mean- 'we offer the best training', 'we present you the most realistic style' and the coffin example provided by one of the other users is enough to see that the Gracies are arrogant people. When I first went to a Gracie Barra School (the only one in Hong Kong), the instructor asked me if I had any previous martial arts experience. I told him that I did tkd. "That sucks" was his immediate response. Would YOU like that kind of people?

I cant say I know what a good BJJ school is like. I trained at a MMA place here in Korea for a few months that I found sad, mainly because after months of lessons I just felt like they were teaching "moves" rather than science. I mean to walk into a BJJ class with no experience in the art and be taught a triangle choke literally within the first 3 minutes after warm ups seemed very strange to me.(nice move but dang I would have liked to learn how to avoid that situation rather than how to defend against it) Over the course of my training I had the unnerving feeling that the people who were running that program had no real training in BJJ at all, and were just fans of the UFC and learned moves/strategy from watching fights or BJJ videos, but had no clue as to teaching methodology concerning a new student.

Also, they did this drill where a few advanced students would get on the floor, and a few people in line would set up with each one, and have about 45 seconds to either avoid a submission, or submit the other. While I can guess this is not abnormal.. what found so silly was that it was the more advanced students who wound up getting the most practice time on the floor during that drill...while the lesser students who actually needed more practical experience spent more of their time waiting in the long line to have another go at one of the three on the floor. Maybe I am silly but wouldn't it have been more helpful to have the ones who needed the most experience the ones who were constantly on the ground getting practice rather than the most advanced? (as in if you lose..you have to stay on the floor and keep trying)

That is not to say that many TMA schools are different. I mention it because it is a natural progression since the has becomes popular. Every Joe Bloe out there will claim to teach BJJ just because it is hot at the moment, which will naturally lead to a watering down of the art the same way has been the case for Karate and Taekwondo since the late 80's and early 90's.

People like to bash Taekwondo here, and much of that is deserved, but that is only because Taekwondo has been on top of the "most popular martial arts" list for more than a decade now. These days (and have been for a few years now), we are seeing the decline of Taekwondo, and a surge in MMA, but it is not the art that is the issue..it is the money hungry people that will take advantage of it, and I am willing to bet that within 5-7 years...people will be talking about the McMMA dojo as much as they are talking about the same thing from Karate or Taekwondo...not because the art itself is bad, but simply because there are more people capitalizing on the hot flavor of the decade, which in this case is MMA and the arts typically associated with it (Muay Thai and BJJ)

I don't think people has a "warped" perception of BJJ...but like most others they are basing their opinion on what they see...which is a daily and ever-increasing number of BJJ and BJJ related schools that are popping up with lackluster training and the same types of practices BJJ folks have been complaining about TMA schools for years. Its as simple as the product life cycle graph from freshman college courses...as popularity grows..it reaches a peak..which invites more competition(similar products) which in most cases are likely inferior to the original..which in time will spread the product but surely drive down the popularity or "rarity" value until the point where it has no choice but to either fail or evolve.

Mostly because BJJ is always referred to in any talk about fighting. Most people come on here and talk about having a better ground game or how if the BJJ fighter takes it to the ground then the fight is over.

What I see wrong with this is that a few have stated that in a street fight BJJ is very good because it is not as lazy as it is made out to be and that just like in an MMA fight it can take down even the best fighters in a one on one match. Except that in a streetfight your not in a cage with one fighter and a referee that stops the fight. Plus your lying on the hard ground with glass and maybe the guy you're fighting has friends.

No offense to BJJ practittioners or MMA fighter but some always bring you guys down with an ego of my MA is better that you're MA. That is basically what is being said. Defending from being taken down doesn't have to be taught, it helps but common sense should kick in and a striker or other type of fighter can still beat a BJJ opponent.

Cracie was a legend because he could do it but let's face it, how many can claim to be as skillsed as he was.

Don't get me wrong, with the right guys using BJJ they can use it for street fighting unless their instructor is terrible and haven't trained hard enough.

All in all I shall conclude that BJJ has earned itself much respect worldwide and should be welcomed with open arms as a martial art that is both popular and most likely great fun.

Nothing against BJJ just those that idolise it and try to convince others that it is the best or better.