Raw diets- is it really as complicated as it sounds?

NOOOO! Once you get the hang of it, it is super simple. It takes more time and effort than feeding kibble, but the benefits are SOOO worth it. PMR (Prey Model Raw) is the best way to go. It is the one that the other poster mentioned. 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ. You feed 2-3% of their desired adult body weight and adjust from there. Some need more. Some need less. That goes for bone too. Bone is what helps keep their poo solid. Too much and you get dusty poo (they literally poo out dusty poo) and they can get constipated while too little and you get cannon butt.

My boys function best on 30-40% bone, but the longer they are on raw, the less they may need.

Start out with chicken quarters or chicken backs for 2 weeks. Keep them on chicken until their poo isn't runny anymore. Quit the kibble cold turkey. The body doesn't do well with both. Kibble takes MUCH longer to digest and they can get indigestion. It can be frustrating at first, but you will get the hang of it and it will become MUCH easier. We love watching our dogs eat.

Check out the site Dog Food Chat. There are MANY dane owners who raw feed on there. One of our members actually just started a thread called "The Danes of DFC" because there are so many dane owners. And you all seem to have multiple danes! Once we have a taller fence, I will have a herd of danes of my own :)

Anyhow, the members on the forum are VERY friendly and will answer any question you might have no matter how silly you might think it is. And they will GLADLY accept another dane owner such as yourself :)

Go to dogfoodchat.com, click on "Forums" and scroll down until you see "Raw Feeding". It is by far the best forum you can find. Natalie even has a step by step guide to transitioning your dogs to raw. Find DaneMama and ask her for the link. I think it might still be in her signature. Anyhow, welcome to the world of raw feeding! It is great fun. If you do decide to check out DFC, I am Dude and Bucks Mamma and would be glad to answer any questions!

Yes, check out the Tom Lonsdale book!

Partridge would be fine, but feed the whole thing. Don't just give breast meat or your dogs will become deficient in many of the crucial minerals and vitamins that they need. (calcium for example). Partridge bones will be fine for them to eat and digest. remove the feathers, chop of his head and feet and you can feed pretty much everything else. Be sure to include the organ meat. that also contains valuable nutrients. Dogs can eat fish but I'd be concerned about worms or other parasites that my be present in raw fish. You'll have to do more research on that. My dogs really enjoy venison meat. I've fed them the ribs, but the long bones are too hard and may cause teeth breakage. I have 3 dogs, and I crate them separately to feed them. This avoids any fights over the food. Definitely do some research so you can make sure you're providing a complete and nutritious diet. My dogs look amazing and feel great and they have been on Raw food for 3 years. Good luck!

Do you need a 'scientifically balanced diet" for each and every meal? No? Well neither does your dog. The general idea is balance over time. As for how much this depends on each animal - my dogs get about 20% of their body weight each week and the cats 3-4% each day.

I tend to feed my dogs and cats at least three different meat sources each week - usually chicken, beef and kangaroo. I also alternate a muscle/meat only meal with a meat and bone meal. I feed liver and kidney once each per week, brains once or twice a month and the occasional tin of sardines or mackerel. They also get table scraps once or twice a week but this is entirely up to you. I have hens and a rabbit so there is really not much food waste around here.

For the dogs there is no need to feed the same amount each day eg if mine get a turkey drum or half a chicken on one day they may only get a tin of sardines or a lamb heart the next. It doesn't worry them but my husband has trouble dealing with this feast and famine concept ;-))

I tend to buy what ever is on sale or end of shelf life so my animals get quite a variety of meats - turkey, beef, lamb, pork, chicken, goat, kangaroo, rabbit and sometimes even seafood mix if I'm feeling generous. Things like a chicken frame are quite bony but when stuffed with oxheart or roo mince make a good meal once or twice a week. Remember though that it is important for teeth and gum cleaning to provide large meals several times a week - something that needs to be tackled from several angles will provide the most cleaning.

The thing is the provide a variety and don't stress too much about what they are getting each day. It all evens out over a week or two.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-diet-guide.p...

** chix - food sold for human consumption will very very rarely (if ever) have parasites. There is NO need to freeze liver, kidney etc that you buy from the butcher. This is more for roadkill or hunted meat. In order to feed a healthy diet to your dog organs are ESSENTIAL http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html

Physiologically dogs ARE wolves. They have behavioural differences but are pretty much the same otherwise - http://rawfed.com/myths/changed.html

Dogs do eat some vegetation if they are hungry or because they enjoy the taste but this does NOT make them omnivores http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/whynotBARF....

It does seem daunting doesn't it. When I heard of raw feeding I thought it was nuts, now I won't feed any other way. Once you get going and get comfortable with it it's as easy as scooping kibble from a bag.

When starting out the main food will be chicken for a few weeks, but you do need to shoot for as much variety as possible. Staples here are chicken and pork, with beef organs. I throw in other stuff as it's available or on sale.

For your dogs I'd start them with half chickens, feeding bigger is always better so the dog doesn't decide he can swallow the food in one bite.

This link has a lot of great resources, including a spreadsheet you can use for each dog to help you get started http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread...

My favorite book for beginners is Works Wonders by Tome Lonsdale.

I used to crunch numbers weekly because I was nervous I'd mess it up. It's fairly easy. 10%bone 5%liver 5%other secreting organ 80%muscle meat.

mine get a diet mostly of chicken, pork, and beef for the liver/other organ.

I do give some supplements, not because the diet is lacking but due to various health issues.

Funny, I had the same feeling.

As far as this prey diet, maybe its a defensive action to fight the misinformation promulgated by the Pet food industry and AAFCO, but I find credibility lacking.

ie. Dogs are not wolves. Domestic dogs do NOT gorge and then fast for days so they do not cleanse their system of the parasites ingested in kills or carrion.

Anyway, what do I do?

I don't feed organ meat to my dog, I don't want to refrigerate something to kill parasites ...if I need to do that, I might as well feed him kibble since they cook the same shite up and put it in a bag and its nutritionally about the same, but I do feed raw (human grade) soup bones, raw human grade meat and (about once a week) cooked squash, or yams which they love. (I will not buy dead carcasses and feed it to my dog)

In terms of amounts:

- my 80 lb adult dogs eat about 3/4 cup raw burger a day with about 1/3 cup of squash and I also feed cous cous...1 cup each to the females and more to my old dog (he seems to need it). He is 90 lbs and needs about 3 cups of cous cous a day to maintain his weight. I had taken the dogs off grains, but the one dog had lost too much weight and he seems to enjoy it.

I give raw soup bones about 1 per day- depends on the size.

The above is when I am not feeding them any kibble. The approximate ratio is 50% protein to grain - and about 20% veggies (cooked). Calcium - I dunno, I was told dogs need 6x the amount of calcium as humans - so I have always believed in feeding raw soup bones which I buy from the grocery store (knuckle bones - large, about the size of your fist so that they cannot swallow them whole)

Often, what I do is combine high quality kibble with some raw food - then I dump the cous cous, and reduce the raw bones to about 3 or 4 x per week, and add about 1/4 cup raw burger to their kibble on the days I don't give bones.

Two of my dogs also love apples, berries and fruit - the 3rd could care less. So, every diet is not for every dog. When they are in season, my old dog will easily eat 3 apples or more a day - I avoid too many for pits but he has no problems with them. They literally eat them off the ground when we are out in the fields.

You adjust for weight and tolerance.

Personally, I find the combo of raw organic foods and high grade kibble a bit more convenient, I have being doing this "raw light" version for 15 or 20 years now.

I would personally try a gradual switch, and see how your dog adjusts. All diets are not for all dogs.

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I believe variety is the spice of life for a dog - and what is proven true for both people and dogs is that toxin levels in certain foods are tolerated in moderation - but in excess, they can be lethal.

If you can find a variety of food proteins that are safe, all the better. Canned fish are known to be high in mercury levels - but in moderation, they are fine.

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@Joh: I agree you don't have to freeze store bought liver. I was referring to carcasses or ofal purchased from a renderer. Small quantities - fine.

Re: wolves and dogs. Yes, physiologically, the wolf and dog are very close, and yes, within 2% of DNA. However the same can be said about the Gorilla and the Human. Humans evolved from Gorillas. Does that make humans a sub-species of the Gorilla? And why doesn't the Canadian Food Guide reference Gorilla diets?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla

The fact remains: dogs are not out there, killing and gorging and fasting like a wolf. In order to "mimic" a wolf, people must freeze carcasses to prevent infestation. And then there's the fact wolves do not exist on carrion - they kill live prey.

To say an animals' physiology is the same (at the macro level) and ignore generations of unnatural selection is highly prejudicial and is done to favour your hypothesis. There are huge gaps in your logic yet to be explained.

Joh: fwiw, I agree variety is good. But if you really want to compare people to dogs ...well then fact: people get sick from bad nutrition every day. A body deficient (for example) in calcium does not stop working, it simply robs calcium from the bones to make up for what is lacking in diet. Its called osteoporosis. Impacts from poor nutrition will not necessarily show up in weeks or months....disease is insidious that way. You justify malnutrition with superfluous logic and ignorance.

While I agree bagged kibble is substandard commercial fodder, feeding a dog a brain one day and a chicken leg the next is hardly adequate nutrition.

RE veggies. Wolves will eat berries, fruit, earthworms, and tripe of large herbivores. They will eat garbage if need be :-) Again, I don't care. Its another red herring argument . My Doberman & GSD's are not wolves...they are dogs! Cheers

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To Op: Heres a book worth reading.

http://www.amazon.ca/Pitcairns-Complete-Guide-Natu...

Yes

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.a...

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=1_12_Raw-Veter...

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/FDA...