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Do atheists have an objective reason to act morally? If so what is it? (genuine question, I want to learn).?
(I have added the fact that this is a genuine question because I am hoping people will give helpful answers rather than aggressive, unhelpful one liners. Answers which do not bother answering the question properly can only be assumed to confirm that the answer to this question is 'no'.)
Is there any objective reason to value things like truth, freedom, love etc without a belief in God.
I am aware of many subjective reasons eg. I like these values, my culture likes these values etc.
I also have heard consequentialist type subjective reasons for these values eg. I believe these values would lead to the best consequences, but then I am left wondering what are the best consequences? Why value certain consequences over others? Why bother valuing consequences at all? Why value anything at all. At the moment I am struggling to see past the idea that atheism should lead to either nihilism or hedonism just for the sake of it. If you can give an answer which explains how atheism can go beyond this or to confirm that it cannot it would be appreciated.
Please do not bother asking me why religious people value these things, or just use your answer to attack theism.
I am being genuine I want to learn.
So far we have:
1. Threat of punishment by society (consequentialist ethics/hedonism i.e I believe that not commiting crimes will make my life happier because I will avoid jail or fines etc).
2. The idea that certain consequences would be promoted by certain actions making those actions good/bad. (consequentialist ethics).
3. For the individuals pleasure (hedonism just for the sake of it)
4. Because we have evolved this way (not really a reason in itself).
5. There is no objective morality (Challenging the presumptions of the question, which is cool).
Religious people do not deny that they choose to act morally because God wants them to. I am quite comfortable with that. I would say that none of the answers given so far challenge my assumptions expect for the suggestion that there is no objective morality which I will have to think about/read about and review my opinion on.
Good answer 'the doc'. bloody good answer.
Just to say that I really do want to learn and I am glad some people are giving me something to think about.
I am very unlikely to give up being a theist but I want to be a balanced Intelligent one.
17 Answers
- The_Doc_ManLv 79 years agoFavorite Answer
First, ALL reasons used by individuals must, by their very nature, be subjective. The existence of sociopathic personalities proves that there is no objective reason (or at the very least, strongly indicates the absence of an objective reason.)
Second, children learn more than just religion from their parents. They also learn moral behavior. In families with deep religious beliefs, it is very hard to separate out the societal morality from the religious morality because they often overlap.
[At the moment I am struggling to see past the idea that atheism should lead to either nihilism or hedonism just for the sake of it. If you can give an answer which explains how atheism can go beyond this or to confirm that it cannot it would be appreciated.]
Nihilism arises when you believe that nothing has a purpose. But there is a hidden component to that, because you only become a nihilist when you believe that everything NEEDS a purpose. Some religious such as Zen Buddhism need neither a god nor a purpose for everything. They take the approach, "OK, here is this thing/condition/person. He/she/it exists. What are we going to do about it?" Purpose does not enter into the discussion until later, and as an ancillary question.
Hedonism isn't limited to atheists. By way of example, those of us from New Orleans have been reminded of a painful lesson after Hurricane Katrina. Life is too short to not find a reason to have a good time. Celebrate your life while you have it. Which is why New Orleans is often accused of being a party town. (And we don't deny it.) But no part of what I just said has anything to do with atheism or religion. It is the HUMAN condition.
When you take either Nihilism or Hedonism to an extreme, there is a problem - but the problem is that you have taken something to an extreme, not that you are atheist or religious.
[Is there any objective reason to value things like truth, freedom, love etc without a belief in God.] No because all values without God are subjective. And let me add that with God, humans cannot aspire to reach the objective ideal anyway. Even if God exists, you can't be God and cannot understand God. Therefore, that object reason is always going to be a mystery to you anyway.
We value truth because if we learn anything from history or our own mistakes, we learn that the truth causes fewer headaches, less pain, less disruption of life, etc. We learn that freedom, when allowed to the maximum extent, allows individuals the greatest chance to find their paths to happiness. We learn that love is calming whereas hatred is jarring. We can observe the consequences - which is just another way of saying that "Those who do not pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it." Is consequentialism bad?
You ask an important question. [I believe these values would lead to the best consequences, but then I am left wondering what are the best consequences?] This is WHY we value freedom. It is not for us to judge the best consequences for another person. That other person must find, perhaps by trial and error, their best consequences. History teaches us that when we try to dictate what should make a person happy, we are ALWAYS wrong for a large percentage of those so dictated. (See above for "learning from history.")
- Anonymous9 years ago
I was raised Catholic, but haven't been so for many years. I am less apologistic about existing, which is the mindset instilled in me by my upbringing, and had made me a 'harmless' and very polite individual.
Since my enlightenment (as I see it) I realise that Christian values aren't TOO-BAD a system to live by - taking the Ten Commandments, you have a loose framework for the laws of most countries on Earth - but I'm equally sure that these conventions of society had been arrived at long before the Bible was written.
You ask "why value certain consequences over others?" - well, to qoute Earl Hickey, "Karma goes around and comes back around" - if we WANT and expect to be treated decently by others, SURELY it's only fair that we treat others as we would hope to be treated - the times I have given people a lift in a downpour of rain, the wallets I have handed in to Police stations, without helping myself to their contents, the lost dogs and cats which seem to seek me out, which I return to their owners, I do these things because it FEELS right, and even if MY wallet doesn't come back, I will continue to act honestly, and with empathy to others. I appreciate you are asking with an open mind, but I get REALLY annoyed at the "Holier-Than-Thou" attitude of a lot of "Christians", when they judge others, and find them wanting - in direct contravention of what their own Bible tells them!
I'm an individual of certain values, and no, on the day I decided that there is no Judgement Day, no Heaven or Hell, I didn't decide "Ohh, What the Hell, I'll just rob and rape and murder my way through life from now on" - Some of the nicest people I know are Christians, but equally, some are of other faiths, and some have no faith at all. Have a nice day.
- Anonymous9 years ago
This depends on your levels and definitions of morality. Being equal to everyone else?
People believe in god and so do priests who molest young children. Difficult subject!
I can't speak for every atheist but my views are that every single individual on the planet is so similar yet so different in every way, it’s whether you control your conciseness or your conciseness controls you.
Having to believe in some sort of God in order to justify acting morally in society is to me a form of brain washing and a control over my own reasoning.
If I walked around all the time thinking 'if I'm not a nice person I'm going to be very very hot when I die', I am then acting out of fear not morality.
I think there is a concise universal energy force passed through genetic coding in our DNA, and the way that this is natured nurtured in early development.
The ability to absorb messages and stimulus from the environment and make a positive action or choice. (Wiring in the Brain)
The ability to determine what fare is and what is not.
I don't believe in God and I also don't support Darwin's Theory. I have broken written laws yet this has never had a negative impact on me or anyone else as a result of my actions.
Yet I'd still stay I value and follow morality because I have the magic ingredient of plain old 'common sense'
- Anonymous9 years ago
"Is there any objective reason to value things like truth, freedom, love etc without a belief in God."
Probably not but first you'd have to convince me a god - ANY god - exists.
I'm here for this ride and I love this ride and I KNOW it's the only one on offer.
I find this ride easier and more pleasurable if I'm nice to people
I know that's a stupid reason to be nice but that's all there is to it.
Oh, and being nice makes me feel good - I can't get away from the fact I'm selfish ;)
“Just think how insightful a book that actually came from a Creator would be...
Beautiful mathematics, comprehensive laws of physics, clear biology, consistent morality and ethics among other gems.
Instead we get a bizarre book on talking snakes, burning bushes, slaves, neolithic philosophy and a strange preoccupation with everyone's sex life”.
Quite frankly, if you need the carrot and stick idea of heaven and hell to behave, then you're not a moral person whatsoever; you're a sociopath leashed by fear and self-interest.
~
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- Anonymous9 years ago
No, no one in the world, atheist or theist, has an objective reason to act morally. You just included the word "objective" which pretty much gets rid of all moral acts, since they are subjective.
Theists act moral because they think a god is watching over them and it is their calling to serve the will of God. That rather cheapens morality, because really, you show your true colors the most when nobody is around. THEN you are being yourself. But, if God is always around spying on you, you can never be truly alone. As for atheism, well morality to us is just whatever generates the positive feelings of love in our brains. And the feelings have generally been generated over the course of history by actions that promote well-being of others.
Morality is subjective by default. Why would humans be more valuable than anything else? We are not, but we evolved to believe that we are. Or else we wouldn't be here, and neither would any other animals species if it thought members of another species were better. It's a big competition.
- WhoLv 79 years ago
This is going to be a one-liner (or rather a 3 liner)
You are startin with one hell of an assumption
that belief in god supplies an objective reason
The hell it does. - ANY belief is subjective, NOT objective
(if you have read the bible to any extent you will knwo that it is full of immoral actions)
There is no reason to suppose that the morality of atheists is different from the religious
If fact the morality of some religious people can be questioned where they can confess their "sins" and be forgiven. One hellova get-out clause that is.
- Anonymous9 years ago
"Is there any objective reason to value things like truth, freedom, love etc without a belief in God"
The basis of your question seems to be that belief in God is a prerequisite for valuing things like truth, freedom and love (an act, a philosophy and an emotion). However in making that assumption that God is required, you haven't explained why that assumption is a valid one. You can (and probably will) dismiss what I am saying as evasive but it goes to the core of what you are asking.
- 9 years ago
I don't need a reason to do the "right" thing or be a "good" person. The way a person values truth, freedom, love, and all that jazz should not be determined by faith but by oneself. I think the better question is why do people of any religion need that religion to act morally, not why do people with no religious beliefs don't need it.
- Melissa MeLv 79 years ago
To not wind up in jail? To not make enemies that can ruin your life? To maintain a job so you can have money to enjoy yourself? Those are all good reasons to not be an *** - that I just don't have the desire to be one. Maybe I just empathize with other people enough that I don't want to?
Thought like yours make me think that the only thing holding a theistic person back is the threat of a god. That they have anger and hate in their hearts that they only keep in control for fear of some "hell". Some of us see the value of being "moral" in the long run. And really, that is all the bible was about to me - making people get along if they couldn't see the good in it on their own.
- Anonymous9 years ago
Consequential thinking is stupid. Those in charge decide the consequences for an action so how can that be truth? We can implement awards to those who kill blacks does that make it right? Right and wrong exist without a god. Personally I believe in a god just not religion all of them fall short of reality. The problem is is that people are weak. We are born knowing what's right but we also as a majority are spineless cowards and act in fear with only a few having guts. In a truly atheist world people would find themselves led around like dogs into whatever immorality the mob majority and those with power wanted. Atheist like to claim religion was created for government control. No all authoritarian governments like Communism eliminates religion for one reason it gives people a belief in something higher than other people that can destroy them.