Jews, did you know that Isaiah 53 was interpreted by PRE Christian jews to be messianical?

Wrong- there are NO written commentaries prior to the time of Jesus. Every commentary quoted is POST the destruction of the Second Temple (and thus is post the Christian period) as it was only then that commentaries started to be written down. In addition, may of the so called commentaries used to prove this are frequently taken out of context or mistranslated to try and create a proof where none exists. On top of that, in the same sources where you have the commentaries utilised, you will find commentaries stating that it refers to the Jewish nation. You will find such statements in Midrash rabbah, Zohar the Talmud etc.

As for utilising Origen- the point being made was that it is attested to by CHRISTIAN sources that long before th time of Rashi (eitgh centuries), Jews were refuting the Christian claims that Isaiah 53 applied to the Mashiach and asserted it applied to the nation as a whole. And why use a Christian source? To counterthe statement often made by missionaries that the idea that it appllies to the nation as a whole is a modern one. SOme even go so far as to claim that it originated with Rashi in the 11th century! Showing a written source, from a figures that cannot be construed as being pro-Hewish (Origen and Justin) from as early as the 3rd century shows that the statement they are making is false and this has always been a Jewish belief.

Feel free to show preChristian Jewish writings that state that Isaiah 53 refers to the mashiach- it should be fun to see how many you can find lol

Hey, if you want to use Midrashim, Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar 23 refers to Isaiah 53 as being the nation of Israel- and that is reliably dated back to the 2nd century, a long time before Midrash Shmuel!

First off, your sources really aren't that impressive or reliable - you listed wikipedia and the Isaiah 53/Samuel/midrash connection is not verified because someone has yet to submit a specific quote, you listed a site that specializes in converting Jews to Judaism, and you listed an online conversation with an anonymous person claiming to be a rabbi.

At any rate, regardless of ancient Jewish views on Isaiah 53, today's Biblical scholars have good reason to believe that Isaiah 53 is referring to the Jewish people. If you read the chapters leading up to Isaiah 52/53, you'll notice that Israel/Yaakov is named the servant multiple times. So why would scholars assume that by the time you get to Isaiah 52/53, we are now talking about a mashiach? The rabbi who oversees the Outreach Judaism organization posted a two-part lecture on the matter: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/FAQ.

Plus, even if we did believe that Isaiah 52/53 is Messianic, what makes you think we'd believe in your mashiach? Afterall, the early sages didn't.

First--whatever Origen did or did not say has no relevance to Jewish interpretations of Isaiah 53.

Second--here is the full quote from Wikipedia: "The verse is messianically interpreted in the Midrash on Samuel.[51][Need quotation to verify]". And when you go to reference 51--why, there *is* no full reference 51.

Come back with the actual part of the Midrash and then we'll talk.

Except of course... it is not a post Christian phenomenon.

In fact, the Pauline version of what the messiah means is fully non-Jewish.

In fact, Jesus' original followers, the Nazarenes, rejected Paul and his version of the Gospels as heresy.

But, the Nazarenes got along quite well with the Pharisees.

And the Nazarenes continued to believe that Jesus was a human being, with no virgin birth, no such notion of a resurrection, no dying for anyone's sins etc...

They also believed in only One.

It was only later that Pauline Christians adopted Bianity, Two.

And later still that they adopted Trinity.

Prophecy often applied to more then one event or application. Yes Isaiah applies to the Jews and also the Messiah. Many of the Messianic prophecies apply apply as well to David and Solomon. The importance of denial is so great that often Jews will ignore their own scripture, history and beliefs to deny anything taught by Jesus.

Lets not forget that Monasticism and celibacy were practiced by Essene Jews long before Jesus was born. The role of the messiah changes as needed by the Jews depending on current events. During the time of Jesus they expected a military leader, now they don't. Jews have told us that scripture says no man gets a second coming and that why Jesus is not the Messiah yet they wait for Elijah's second coming.

Justyn Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew gets Rabbi Tarfon to admit that the Jews changed their scriptures (canon and interpretation).

Context! Context! Context! This is all taken out of context. Isaiah 53 is a continuation of chapter 52, which describes the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The Jews are the Servant of God (noted in Isaiah 43:8). In chapter 52, Isaiah clearly states about 11 times that the servant of God is Israel.

You can twist the words to make them fit your agenda. Take Luke 14:26, "If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Christians are evil? No, this is taken out of context.

Throughout the book of Isaiah, note:

My Servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the descendants of Abraham, My friend. You, whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest regions, and said to you, You are My Servant, I have chosen you and have not cast you away.” (Isaiah 41:8-9. See also Isaiah 43:10; 44:1-2,21; 45:4, 48:20, 49:3.) Clearly the nation of Israel is the one who will be vindicated and uplifted.

Throughout the Torah, the Jews are described as a single people (See Exodus 4:22, Hosea 8:3, 14:5-6, Jeremiah 50:19, Deuteronomy 32:8-13, etc.).

You need to take the rest of the book into account. Isaiah tells us that the Servant will be universally despised and rejected (53:3). Maybe to the Jews, but not to the Christians. Isaiah’s Servant is to be rewarded with long life and many children (53:10). Jesus died childless and young. “…As a result of the transgression of my people, they were afflicted.” (53:8)

This isn't a completion. Jews aren't debating with you. You are welcome to your religion. You are not welcome to call us things (smoke and mirrors as though we're deceitful), or insist that we answer to you. That is not respectful of others & their religions.

"but this heightens my suspicions." You are "suspicious" of Jews? You say you are suspicious of Muslims. I suggest you get a hold of your suspicions. Both are sets of humans, no different from you. Suspicious of other humans is either bigotry or a treatable medical condition.

Origen is a Christian CHURCH father. Nothing to do with Judaism.

You don't give any pre-Christian interpretations.

Jews for Jesus are CHRISTIANS trying to fool Jews into converting by calling themelves Jews. They are sponsored by & have the same theology as Southern Baptists denominations.

You haven't given anything to answer to!

Your own links to other YA questions have Jews stating flat out that it's never been part of Jewish interpretation. Answerers here are saying it. I"M saying it. So now you can not ever again say that Jews don't deny this directly.

I don't care if you believe I'm going to hell or not. So no need to tell me what you believe. I don't believe in hell, and I don't center my world around your beliefs. I center them around mine. There is no Judeo-Christian story of end times. The two religions have very different visions.

So go study your religion for yourself. Jews aren't obligated to answer to you. Equivocally, unequivocally, or any which way. And stop calling us suspicious. It's not nice.

Jfj and Chosen People Ministries are an xtian NOT Jewish groups their sole purpose is to deceive Jewish people by what ever means are needed, including flat out lies !

Don't be fooled, Chosen People Ministries MEANS BUSINESS - they are out to win Jewish souls - AND they have the money to do it: More than $14 MILLION Dollars a year is raised by this ONE group, alone! (based on Evangelical Christian Financial Accountability, www.ECFA.org)

DON'T BE A TARGET

Know the Facts

Be Prepared

Be Knowledgeable

Check out Jews for Judaism's Special Isaiah 53 Updates and Resources www.jewsforjudaism.org/53

Ebook:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/ isaiah53/ebook-the-jewish- response-to-missionaries- speacial-isaiah-53-edition- download-it-free-today/

>Most christians (silent majority) do NOT believe you must be quote-unquote "christian" to be saved

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

Wow what an interesting (question). I have always believed much of the Book of Isaiah to be a Prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. And I have to agree with what You and the Rabbi discussed as being the ancient Messianic writing for the Jews at the time. Isaiah 9:6 is a clear prophecy of Messiahs coming.