Shotokan and Karate seniors:Can you answer this Heian Nidan kata technical question?

In the International Seishinkai Karate Union( 国際聖心会空手連盟) this came up at the Spring gasshuku in North Carolina a few years ago.

Kaicho Burgermeister, head of the ISKU, was demonstrating the technique and asked whether everyone did it one way or another. He asked my teacher, the head of the US division (not originally a shito ryu guy) who replied, "Neither."

The question was, do you step your feet together and kick or slide backward and kick. As my teacher does, I always pivot my foot and hips and go right into the kick.

Granted Shito Ryu is not Shotokan, we do a mae geri. But the point here is that no one is wrong. Kata is done differently by everyone. Even Shotokan guys. Even in Seitei kata. No one moves exactly the same.

You should do whatever the highest person tells you to do, when they're around.

Your sensei trumps the Organization in his own Dojo. The Kaicho trumps your Sensei when he's around.

Okinawa mentality, go with the flow. Don't sweat the small details. Your teacher sounds like a good honest man.

The Neko Ashi Dachi is closer to the Pinan Nidan(Okinawan) version.

I used to worry about finishing where I started but it does not really make a difference, as long as you are understanding the principle and mechanics of the application.

But I would do it as I learned it from my Sensei. Maybe you can ask him in a question demonstrating curiosity of the many variations you have seen and not as something you see as a discrepancy.

One thing I have learned - when you are following a TRULY traditional school - there is no wrong or right way. Just variations. Unless it is something taught by many of the clowns and charlatans out there.

Edit:

I know that kata - the Pinan version and I pivot my whole body on my left foot where I end up in sort of a kosa/neko-dachi - very small, tight, then launch Mae Geri from there. I do this to keep rooted and my right foot does not really make a big movement, just an adjustment into kosa dachi, and it is all one movement.

That's very similar to how you are doing it now... how you were taught.

Like I said, there is no right or wrong way. It's all about the body mechanics and how you understand the technique - what you understand it to be.

You should always listen to your instructor so you will have to do the form the way he says. Perhaps in time he may reconsider without you questioning him.

I am wondering about some things you wrote. The change makes it easier to perform cat stance. Forms are not changed to make things easier. Anyone who changes a form to make something easy is missing the point of forms all together. Smooth transitions are not a reason to change a form either. Something difficult or ruff can become smooth with proper practice. As you know there are reasons for the way forms are arranged. Your instructor has given you these answers so the changes are deliberate and not an accident or oversight. This would worry me. The only times I have seen forms changed was because of ego, inexperience, or extended time away from practice which caused some techniques to be forgotten/changed.

I was a judge at a tournament where a change was made to pinan sandan. When I pressured the student's instructor about the difference he finally told me he changed it so people would recognize his students as his. What a jerk and his students sucked anyway thanks to his poor teaching. Just my 2 cents.

BTW-of course forms are done differently in every organization but deliberately changing a form is not the same as one school's version vs. another. There is a right and wrong way to do anything no matter what some may think.

Several thoughts come to mind on this. First there are so many versions of the Heian/Pinan Kata that it is difficult to say what is what without seeing the version of the Kata you mention. As you likely know not only are there different versions of the kata the styles that do them don;t always do the Kata in the same order. The Heian Shodan and Heian Nidan are often not in the same order. As for the embusen. I'll say this. i often see instructors that are taught Kata one way doing it differently some years later. I have had students that became instructors open their own dojo. Then later while visiting them i see the Kata done differently from the way I taught it. They almost always dispute the way I taught them saying that they are doing it the way i taught it. Many years ago I wrote down the Kata and also filmed them. I did this for reference when anyone questions how the Kata was to be done. It has cleared up these kinds of problems many times. Perhaps your Sensei has inadvertently changed the Kata over the years? Or he was taught it incorrectly to start with? Regardless, Kata do not always end where they start. Some Kata are supposed to end exactly on the same spot they started on. Others do not and are not supposed to. When I first started my training in 1967 my early instructors were adamant that the Kata end where it started. It used to drive me nuts to try to make every Kata I learned end in the same spot. Then I met instructors that had trained in the koryu in Okinawan and Japan. They corrected my idea that all Kata ended in the same place as it started.

Perhaps you could post a link to a video of Heian Nidan as you do it. At least we would all be on exactly the same page....

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It has always been taught to me the way you describe Kanazawa Sensei's method. You miss the embusen by the exact distance created by moving the "wrong" foot. Instructors are human as the rest of you, and we are all subject to error at times. I "accidentally changed" such a small movement in hian yondan, and I never even knew it until I had a discussion with a student who had worked out with a student from a different teacher. Your instructor may or may not see an error in what he does. Talk respectfully with him and see what he has to say about it. It isn't the end of the world for you either, learn it both ways can't hurt you. Good luck.

I have learnt a few kata where embusen (what i understand as finishing and starting at the same point) are not possible. Add to that the differences in kata between dojo's and its not really worth arguing over. If it truly does make the transition easier and more combat applicable (i would have to see video) than i say let it be.

Well, I'm not only not experienced in Heian Nidan, I'm not even experienced in Shotokan. So take my answer with a grain of salt if you will. Because it turns out you asked two questions - and I can answer the second.

Yes: let it be and do it his way. Do it faithfully, on the condition he provides you with a good application. Do it to get through the class if he cannot. Either way, you're either showing humility, respect, and etiquette; or you're just showing humility and etiquette. You can't be faulted for making either choice, yes?

But here's the rub: if there is adequate application for doing it his way, then, wouldn't the more important goal of embodiment of application trump the embodiment of symetry of form? If the application of doing it his way makes for better application than the original way, what's wrong with improvement?

As was already stated, there can't be anything wrong with doing it both ways: the analysis of doing it either way (right or wrong) has already given you knowledge and education. You win either way.

Kanazawa knows his kata. I know a lot of teachers make subtle changes but I see no need, this is how we end up with multiple styles. I believe Karate was originally intended to be taught in one way but like any art form it leaves itself open to different peoples different interpretations.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/contact

Forward your question to him.

What it sounds like is that the instructor is attempting to simulate foot movement between the techniques. The kata doesn't assume a specific footwork between techniques or sequences in the kata, it leaves it up to the user. So if you're turning, it's because you need to change your angle to the target; how you get there using what stance is up to the individual. By the kata practicing different combinations of movements from different positions, it allows people to use attacks at that angle even if they got to that position via a very weird fashion.

Thus it is not necessary to have a strict "smooth" transition between kata sequences. In fact, every time a person turns at an angle in the kata, they are now in a new sequence. It jumps ahead and thus leaves blank how you got to that situation. That's up to the fighter in question and the context/chaos of the conflict to decide.

As for what to do with the instructor, I would simply follow the path of least resistance and do it his way. Then at home, I'll do it the way I believe is correct. Since I spend more time training at home than at the dojo in aggregate, this only eats up time at the dojo. If you are annoyed by that, then you might wish to change it. If you can tolerate it, then take the path of least resistance. Cause the path of greater resistance just might require you to get him to reinvestigate kata somehow.

You can create two compartments. One where you use your shotokan instructor's idea, which is using kata as a "fight pattern plan". It links two techniques together by a foot movement transition. So you use one move, transition using that footwork immediately to another move. The other compartment would be how kata was traditionally constructed, which is to say the moves are sequenced next to each other but they are not continuous, with the discontinuous parts being the footwork and transition movement itself.

For specifics on this kata and what the specific moves mean, you will have to get that info from the researcher I mentioned.

Videos for those that can't visualize this issue.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/what-angles...

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/pinan-nidan-hei...

EDIT: Many people on the net can't read longer than 2 paragraphs because of tl;dr, so they may have gotten confused and angry when trying to read what I wrote. Plus, there are also many practitioners that disagree with this view of kata by large and far.

I've analyzed the video sequence in question. It's consistent with my prior claim that when you change directions, for the sidekick, that's basically the kata telling you that you need to be at a 90 degree angle to your opponent, then you can kick him. The step shuffle forward is thus a the conclusion of stepping at a 45/90 degree angle to the target. Although from what I've seen, the application is probably closer to this one.

http://youtu.be/XQ0iaMx7XM0?t=2m26s

If a student practices that move thinking they're already in touching range, they will be left wondering "how did the opponent somehow get far enough away for me to kick them". Well... that's because the sequences in kata are discontinuous. So the only thing left for them to make sense of it is "I hit one opponent, now I turn around to my right to side kick another opponent". That is however, not as accurate as it could be. The fact that Kanazawa has his right hand "clear" his center line when he does the side kick, tends to suggest he is either deflecting a potential attack and then simultaneously using the kick to also clear the attacking arm and strike at relatively the same time, is consistent with the principle of simultaneous action for defense/offense. The step forward with the foot is thus the "end" sequence of him arriving at the 45/90 angle, off the center line, so that he doesn't receive the attacker's punch head on.

The way your shotokan karate instructor modified it is either reduce the time lag or actually do a miniature side step off to the side, to then side kick another attacking opponent from another direction. However, that's not what kata should be used for. If you want to "fight multiple opponents" you should have a drill where 2 people come at you simultaneously... wouldn't that be the obvious solution.