So God is plural in the OT from page 1 and the NT teaches that Jesus created all things?

SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE:

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Fundamental Belief #2)

It's beginnings come from Matthew's Gospel where Christ commands His disciples to preach the gospel and baptize in "The name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Matt. 28:19

The first Christians were Jews by birth and upbringing, or else they were Gentiles who knew the Jewish faith. When Jesus was accepted as Messiah and God, by people whose existing beliefs about God were based on the Old Testament, a simple confession of faith in Jesus as "Lord" or "Son of God" was enough to admit them to the Christian community. But the situation was different when the Gospel was carried to complete pagans. Not only had they to learn about Jesus as Lord and Savior, but about God the Father as well. The Christians looked to Matthews words in Matt. 28:19 where Christ commissions His apostles to "make disciples of all nations, and to baptize them into the THREEFOLD NAME.

The earliest mentions of baptism in the early writings of the church Father's speak of the "thrice -blessed invocation". The Didache, written about the end of the first century: "Regarding baptism, baptize thus...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit' in running water. But, if you have no running water, baptize in any other; ..but if that too is lacking, pour three times on the head ‘in the name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit.'"

Tertullian (160-222 A.D.)

wrote:

"He commands them to baptize into the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit..and indeed it is not once only, but three times, that we are immersed into the Three Persons, at each mention of Their names. ....We are THRICE immersed, making a somewhat ampler pledge than the Lord has appointed in the Gospel."

Hippolytus, writing in the early 200's, says: "Then he enters the water, and the presbyter, laying his hand on the candidate's head, immerses him thrice, asking him at each immersion whether he believes in the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity...

In Paul's writings, when he was invoking the fullest divine blessing wrote:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." 2 Cor. 13:14.

In 180 A.D. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, tried to clarify the belief.

"The Church believes in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed by the prophets the dispensations and the coming of Christ...

Now it has been clearly demonstrated that the Word which exists from the begining with God, by whom all things were made, who was also present with the race of men at all times, according to the time appointed by the Father, has been united to his own workmanship and made passible man. ...but the Son of God did not then begin to exist since he existed with the Father ALWAYS."

This is not quite a paradox; Jesus and Jehovah are the equal. They're each ingredients of the Trinity. The Trinity is quite difficult to comprehend (i do not suppose we are going to ever fully grasp it totally until we're in Heaven), however truly it means that God is three men and women--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jehovah a form of the Hebrew title for God. For that reason, pronouncing that God created the arena within the historical testament and that Jesus created it within the New has no contradiction. I'd give an illustration right here, however there fairly will not be good examples of the Trinity--it is not like the relationship between the ingredients of an egg, or the forms of water, or anything like that... It's fully exclusive from something we on the planet can be aware of. I really hope this answers your query totally!

Elohim is plural in Hebrew the same way "deer and sheep" are singular in English.

By looking at the verbs and pronouns used in context denote number.

For Gen 1:26 to teach the trinity the verbs have to be plural as well.

Sorry but this is not the case.

Ex 7:1 Jehovah made Moses "Elohim" to Pharaoh. This doesn't mean Moses is three or more persons.

Speaking of Pharaoh, he was a god incarnate, he was the son of a god, and was worship in a triune.

Deut 6:4 Contrast Jehovah with Pharaoh and the other gods of the nation.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah;

Harper's Bible Dictionary tells us:

Baal / Bel translates into English as "Lord"

Literal translation is two words meaning "son of" and "god"

Was worshiped in a trinity.

Where have I heard this before? If you worship the Lord, the son of god, in a trinity.

You must be a Baal worshiper.

.2 Cor 4:4 what is the glory of Jesus? An image. If you believe Jesus is more than this, how does Paul describe you?

.

.

Most Trinitarians completely misunderstand the meaning of "ELOHIM".

Elohim does *not* mean a "plural oneness" or a "plurality of persons" as they sometimes claim.

That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote "a `plural' of majesty or excellence" is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the best authorities for Biblical Hebrew.

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament ("long regarded as a standard work for students"), p. 49, shows that elohim, is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,

"The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times." And that elohim when used in that sense "occurs in a [numerically] singular sense" and is "constr[ued] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular."

And the prestigious work edited by Hastings says about this:

"It is exegesis of a mischievous if pious sort that would find the doctrine of the Trinity in the plural form elohim [God]" ("God," Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).

Do you read Hebrew?

It is singular not plural. When the Jewish people are being talked about it is singular or plural but when its G-d, its singular. G-d is one and not some sort of trinity 3 being kind of deity. G-d is ONE and no matter how xtians want to talk about how 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, doesn't mean it does. G-d is one and is ONLY one and the concept of a trinity is so against Judaism that is boggles the mind.

It is not there throughout but again, I assume you speak Hebrew for you to make such amazing claims?

My question is why do so many xtians struggle with the concept that 1 really means 1 and not 3. I thought I was bad at math but I do know 1 means 1 and I know that 1 + 1 + 1 cannot equal 3...ever. A book that is so specific as to tell us what kind of food to eat and how to dress...don't you think it would be very specific on the nature of G-d? Of course and IT WAS. G-d is 1 and 1 means 1.

The arrogance of xtians trying to tell people what is in the Torah never fails to not only amaze me but irritate me as well.

You are correct in your observation that the word Elohim, is a plural form of the singular word for God, El. What you might not be familiar with is that there is a third case for the word for God, and that is the dual form or Elohiam.

So we have three ways of expressing a word that means God.

A singular God, El

A dual form of God, or two gods, Elohiam.

A plural form of God, three or more, Elohim.

In this way we can see that even in genesis, the trinity of the three persons of God, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, were represented.

It should also be noted that the verbs used in these sentances does not agree with the subject. The verb form used is that for a singular subject, and not a plural subject. This helps understand the Unity of the Trinity, and not have it be three separate gods. To help you understand, you can easily imagine a sentance containing the phrase, He is. This is the third person singular form of the subject and a singular form of the verb to be. In English the third person plural form would be They are. If you had a sentance constructed as "They is" you could tell that the verb form and the subject form did not agree. This is the kind of thing that is happening in Gen 1:26

So are you for or against trinity?

And if you know what elohim/alhim really means, it is plural and singular, and sometimes both. For example, God, Gods, the mighty ones, etc... Context and hebrew language skills will clear up your confusion.

And if used plurally, it just affirms that the Christ was with God since the beginning. It is not saying that they form a trinity, triune or any other paganistic deity. Nor is it saying that they are the same person.

Read the Gospel of John... in Greek!

Greetings,

EVERY Trinitarian "proof text" requires an ignorance of context and Hebrew and Greek grammar. Every text Trinitarians cite requires that an interpretation be "read into" the scripture which contradicts the Biblical teaching.

Trinitarians claim that God is three distinct "persons" in only one God by using the word ELOHIM. They say that since the word ‘God' (ELOHIM) is plural it must indicate multiple entities within one "God."

But these Trinitarian arguments only convince those who are ignorant of Hebrew grammar and don't bother to do the simplest of research.

First, when Trinitarians point to the plural ELOHIM they are actually contradicting their own belief. Because ELOHIM means, not "persons," but "gods." So those who argue that this word implies a Trinity make themselves polytheists, because it would mean that there were three GODS in the Trinity.

However, this Trinitarian interpretation is rejected by virtually all modern scholars:

"The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among Scholars."—Smith Bible Dictionary.

THEOLOGICAL WORDBOOK OF THE OT: "The plural ending is ...not intended as a true plural when used of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular."

See also: Girdlestones Synonyms of the OT, The Broadman Bible Commentary 2:214, Milton S. Terry; Biblical Hermeneutics; 86, the American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. Xxi., etc. etc. etc....

Trinitarians must ignore Hebrew grammar because when the plural ELOHIM is used with singular verb and adjectives it ALWAYS denotes a single entity, never a plurality!! At De.6:4 and Gen1:26 Elohim CANNOT denote a plural entity by the laws of grammar!

The "intensive plural" is common with many Hebrew words, and semantically it NEVER means what Trinitarians what to force it to.

Therefore, the statement "God is a plurality" is a Theological presupposition which has no support in the Hebrew word ELOHIM. It's only source is eisegesis: forcing a personal Theology back into the text.

It is sad that this information is not passed on to the lay Trinitarians while their preachers continue to require an ignorance from their flock when they promote such weak evidences.

Next, Jesus is NEVER presented as the Creator in any verse in the Bible.

Every verse mentioning Jesus' role in creation actually proves that he is NOT the Creator. The Bible always makes it clear that God created "THROUGH" Christ, and it is never said that Christ created!! The Greek text *always* presents Jesus as the intermediate *agent* or "masterworker" who worked under God's direction (Pro.8:30).

While some translations obscure this by rendering DIA as "by," Christ is always presented as the AGENT that God used in creation. The original Greek of every such verse states that things were created THROUGH (DIA) Christ which denotes his being God's *agent,* not The Creator. Correct translations make this clear: NKJV, NASB, ASV, WEB, NAB, NJB, NIV, NRSV. It is always God created "THROUGH" Christ, not that Christ created! (Cf. Heb.1:2 & Jn.1:3).

"The distinction between immediate agency (HUPO with the genitive) 'by', and intermediate agency (DIA with the genitive) 'through', is not well observed in the Authorized...Mt. 1:22, Jn. 1:3,10,17...God is the immediate agent, but he worked though (dia)."—H.S. Miller; General Biblical Introduction pg.376

Scholar Emil Brunner writes: "the world, it is true, was created THROUGH--DIA--the Son, but not BY--hUPO--the Son... but that He Himself is never called the Creator."--"Dogmatics" (Volume I) page 308

Jehovah is the only Creator and Christ was the "master worker" by God's side (Pro.8:30).

The fact that Christ is ALWAYS grammatically presented as the intermediate AGENT that God used in creation agrees with the context of Scripture. Jesus always clearly states that he "can do nothing of myself" and "is not able to do anything from himself" (Jn 5:19,26,30; 6:38).

Further, the Bible is very clear: Everywhere in the Bible God is separate and distinct from Christ. Christ is always presented as less than Almighty God (Jn. 14:28; 20:17; Mk.13:32; 1Cor.15:27,28; Rev.3:2,12). At the highest position he will ever attain, Jesus still has a God over him and is "subject" to *GOD* the same way we are "subject" to him.

The Bible never contradicts nor confuses with incomprehensible doctrines like the trinity.

"Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything."-Robert A. Heinlein

Yours,

BAR-ANERGES

There is a small problem with your reasoning--- every bible book writer of the ot served YHWH( Jehovah --- its 100% fact all of them served a single being God. Its the trinity believers who say otherwise, but the israelites know their own history 1000,s of times better than any trinity scholar in existence. Jesus himself said that the Father is the only true God( John 17:1-6,John 5:30) same thing Paul taught( 1 cor 8:6) So either Jesus and Paul are wrong or the trinity teaching is wrong.I will believe Jesus.

The Elohim were the Canaanite pantheon. And the Canaanites probably derived their mythology from the Babylonians. If you read the Babylonian creation epic, Enuma Elish, you'll see parallels between Marduk and the God of Genesis 1 and his mother Tiamut, a personification of the ocean of chaos ("and darkness was upon the face of the deep").

The Elohim were ruled by El Elyon (God Most High), and later by Hadad the rain god, who is generally the god referred to by the title Baal (Lord). In Genesis 14:18-22, Abram is blessed by Melchizedek, the Canaanite High Priest of El Elyon and king of Salem, and Abram accepts the god as his.

The enemy of the Elohim is Yam (the sea), a chaos monster slain by Baal. This might have been derived from the Sumerian creation epic Enuma Elish, in which the god Marduk battles the great dragon Tiamat (the waters of chaos, and mother of the gods) and divides her body to create the heaven and the earth. In Genesis 1, God's Spirit moves upon the face of the waters (verse 2) and then divides them (verses 6-7). Marduk hangs up his bow after his victory over Tiamat, much as God does in Genesis 9:13 after the Flood.

Theologians sometimes take a more recent concept or construct and read it back into earlier scriptures. So they might then interpret earlier scriptures as referring to newer doctrines that the author never intended. So in Genesis 1, when it refers to God saying "Let us ...", they then re-interpret that as the Trinity talking to itself (accepted by the orthodox Church of Rome in the Council of Nicaea, 325CE); the author had probably envisaged the Canaanite pantheon as above.

I don't know what Bible you read, but the ones I have read say no such thing. Who would God be talking to at Gen 1:26 if all three make up God? Themselves? The angels? Connecting the dots shows HE(singular) is speaking to HIS (singular) master worker, Jesus, who is not equal to God. It's all throughout the Bible that Jehovah is the only one called Almighty. Jesus himself said true worshipers would worship the father. Jesus said he had a God. According to the trinity, there are 2 Gods. How does that work?