It is only possible to awaken "out" of the illusion, but not "in" the illusion...agree?

Agree?

That is for you to decide!

Illusion is a vast ocean.

Illusion cloaks the "Self".

Before an "Awakening" can take place, one must fully understand, fully master, and intentionally discard "Illusion".

The "Ocean of Illusion" (Maya) is both 'within and without'.

Awakening is nothing more than the complete knowledge and mastery of, and over "The Forces Of Illusion" (Maya Veeram).

When illusion has been dispelled, an awakening will commence.

As long as even a fragment of illusion remains, an awakening is not possible.

~~~~~

a small point:

One should not place the cart before the horse, is it not so?

A cart doesn't pull a horse very well, is it not so?

Is it easier to pull or push, a heavy chain?

One must first become aware of the basic design and construction of such a heavy chain, before one can either pull or push it.

~~~~~

Enlightenment; is the dream...

Peace be always with you.

in sha'Allah

al-hamdu lillah

Salaams,

Some teachers will talk about being awakened/enlightened, and it may be so, but as with all concepts, it's only true in a given context. It's not really fair to say that if the claim is made, then one is deluding themselves. However, making the claim is usually of questionable value as it focuses attention on the individual who is really of no importance and feeds the notion that proof can be had. It also dangles a carrot in front of the seeker who may also want to be able to make that claim. IOW, it's generally a distraction from looking within. Of course it's true that no person ever attains enlightenment, since enlightenment includes the realization that there never was a separate, volitional person.

As for awakening in the illusion, Jed McKenna talks about waking up within the dream, which is not enlightenment but rather full consciousness or what he calls human adulthood. It's far more accessible than awakening FROM the dream and is a worthy goal. It's also essentially a prerequisite to 'full awakening' so it's a good focus.

My contact with full Awakening has been at second hand, which probably qualifies me to talk about it, as no-one who's been there actually will or can.

Nothing at all that we say about it will be accurate, that's the nature of the 'thing', but it seems that Awakening is from the inside and utterly dismantles any concept of an "awakener". There is an individual - and then there is Awakening - and the individual is totally seen through as an illusion.

So yes, it is possible to awaken "out of" the illusion, but it means the death of the ego.

(It is important that I add here that what I have said is not Truth, just some old bloke's idea about the truth.)

Spiritual awakening is not a goal and not something that happens overnight. It is a slow steady process that usually takes many lifetimes. That being the case, we are all at our own different levels of awareness, so it's not so black and white... there are many subtle grades. We don't wake up one day and say "Hey, this is all an illusion!", it happens gradually. But what matters are the lessons learned on the way to awakening, not the awakening itself.

While in this material realm, we are one great force inhabiting many material bodies. When you start to see every human being, every animal, insect, plant... every life form as a part of yourself, that is when you start to understand that we can be separate, and yet one, all at the same time.

Probably the purpose of our lives is to awaken to our true divinity while still in a body.

I suppose often as we leave our bodies that is the time of enlightenment.

If the Divine has a purpose for us to awaken and stay in our physical bodies then it will happen individually or collectively.

We can become 'active' in any Dream or state of consciousness imo

I believe Divinity has 'purpose and structure' . If words can impart anything about the Divine.

Only 'personal experience' is real for all of us :))))

How could we know what non-illusion feels like, or what realness is, while inside a possibly facaded reality? We see things through the same mental facilities that we use in living the illusion, because this is all we're capable of doing.

We use comparison factors to judge if we're experiencing an illusionary state of being. But the very tools needed to do this, are utilizing human nature and human capabilities. Human nature is our destiny to be, and it's inescapable.... as long as we're earthly humans.

The Godel's theorem states that if you are within the problem you cannot solve the problem. But if move away or out of the problem and watch it from a distance you can find the solution.

Similarly, if you want to realize the world as an illusion, you have to move away and watch the illusion unfolding. As long as you are dreaming, the dream looks very real. To stop dreaming you have to wake up.

Likewise, with illusion, as long as you are in illusion the world is very real. The moment you wake up by watching yourself from a distance you will realize that reality is far different from the world.

This is an excellent question, and YES you certainly have a point.

I just wish I wasn't so tired right now (haven't slept a wink in the past 34 hours) and could offer you an answer worthy of the question.

I might be back after a few hours, and if the question is still open, and I'm not exhausted, I'll add my 2 cents worth.

Right now, all I can manage is some serious daydreaming.

.

No. That's what he wishes you to think. He wishes you to suppose he is an illusion. He is the master of phantasm. Devil is real. He tried to usurp God's throne and has been on a mission ever because to spoil all that God loves. Devil shouldn't be the improper thoughts. He conjures up them. And he works over time to turn persons from the loving God of heaven. All you have to do is to seem round you to see the outworking of satan's executive. I would like nothing to do with him. I'm on the Lord's aspect.

Dear asker, you are taking the state of awakening as mis-defined, therefore under estimating, actually that state can not be defined in words. In that state we see others who are not awakened with the Eyes of God, we can also see who are our awakened spiritual mates.

The matter of enlightened or awakened is not some thing to claim, this word is too small to use here. Till there is 'self' deception, we are not awakened or enlightened.

After achieving the state of enlightenment we virtually see that nothing is separate from Him, but we come to know why every one feels separate. That is why we become graceful, kind and merciful to every one.

Enlightenment is not a part of dream, but in fact this is awakening from dream and if one is a part of dream he or she is not yet awakened. Here is a verse to this context of awakening. The enlightened one is compatible to be separate entity from every one.

Meeting with the Guru, I have forsaken the love of duality.

As Gurmukh, I chant the Name of the Lord.

My anxiety is gone, and I am in love with the Naam (elixir), the Name of the Lord.

I was asleep for countless lifetimes, but I have now awakened. ||1||

Granting His Grace, He has linked me to His service.

In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, all pleasures are found. ||1||Pause||

The Word of the Guru's Shabad has eradicated disease and evil.

My mind has absorbed the medicine of the Naam.

Meeting with the Guru, my mind is in bliss.

All treasures are in the Name of the Lord God. ||2||

My fear of birth and death and the Messenger of Death has been dispelled.

In the Saadh Sangat, the inverted lotus of my heart has blossomed forth.

Singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, I have found eternal, abiding peace.

All my tasks are perfectly accomplished. ||3||

This human body, so difficult to obtain, is approved by the Lord.

Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, it has become fruitful.

Says Nanak, God has blessed me with His Mercy.

With every breath and morsel of food, I meditate on the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||29||42||

{{{Guru Arjan Dev Ji Raag Bhairao 1148}}}

Here are other characteristics of enlightened one named as GURMUKH in the verse.

By practicing control over the nine gates, one attains perfect control over the Tenth Gate.

There, the unstruck sound current of the absolute Lord vibrates and resounds.

Behold the True Lord ever-present, and merge with Him.

The True Lord is pervading and permeating each and every heart.

The hidden Bani of the Word is revealed.

O Nanak, the True Lord is revealed and known. ||53||

Meeting with the Lord through intuition and love, peace is found.

The Gurmukh remains awake and aware; he does not fall sleep.

He enshrines the unlimited, absolute Shabad deep within.

Chanting the Shabad, he is liberated, and saves others as well.

Those who practice the Guru's Teachings are attuned to the Truth.

O Nanak, those who eradicate their self-conceit meet with the Lord; they do not remain separated by doubt. ||54|| {{{Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Raamkalee 944}}}