Who should have a black belt?

I would give these guys a black belt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFnJuznm4BI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32H1n87WgCM

...before I gave these guys a black belt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM8Lf_fEoY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6tGin52HQc

The difference isn't age. It's the apparent attention to detail, the clear dedication and perseverance to their respective styles. Some would argue that none should have a black belt. There are times I'd agree with that. But physique and emotional maturity is but a small part of a bigger picture. Ability to teach, troubleshoot, and ability/capability, are also important things as well. I doubt my first two would meet that criteria.

But I'd rather see minors get black belts than some adults who do not deserve it, and since there is no standard, it will be the well-performing children who do earn the belts who will have more respect for the belt and the style, than the underperforming adults who have it and don't "get it".

Some say, a 1st dan is only a "beginner" - I say it too - and I believe it. But if that's true, then why not start everyone at "black belt"? That's absurd, but why not children who work hard and as long - or longer - than adults? What really means "maturity"? We can let 10 year olds hunt with rifles, babysit at 12, emancipate at 15, drive and consent to sex at 16, kill humans (military) at age 17, vote and smoke at 18, drink liquor and go into adult book stores at 21. Why this thing about age? Some say at "16" or "18". Why limit to 16 or 18, when they can already legally hunt, emancipate, drive, kill, have sex, and vote? What have we taught them for black belt that they haven't already otherwise can learn?

I'm not a fan of giving a 7 year old a black belt, but I'm not also a fan at limiting it to 16, either.

Yes, honestly I find that younger black belts are able to mimic the movements and remember the techniques but they tend not to grasp the subtlety or philosophy of martial arts. A true black belt is never actually achieved. In the old days it was only achieved when your initial white sash turned black since you were not able to wash it. After decades of blood, sweat and grime and dirt from training and perseverance your sash would turn black and you would then be considered a black belt. Children just don't have the mentality to be a black belt. A child has not survived the struggles of adolescence yet and thus is incapable of understanding the struggles and hardships that martial arts are suppose to possess. These schools that hand out belts to young kids are just trying to show progress to the parents so they keep sending there kids back and they can keep making a buck. (There are some exceptions and they are really rare and usually come from "gifted" individuals).

Hi there

Sex, Colour, age or disability do not matter here and never should. Are these arts only for the strong? The west has completely f&*ked up how the arts are trained and their understanding of what they are actually about. A shodan is given on a persons understanding of the fundamentals and principles of the system.

Heres my 3 reasons why I wouldnt grade someone to shodan

1. Age. No one under 18 years of age regardless!

2. Mental state of mind. Thugs, idiots and muppets get show the door! Again regardless of how big their bicepts or egos are wrong state of mind and heart equals no shodan! It comes back to point number 1 in that its like giving a loaded gun to a baby.

3. Criminal records. Goes without saying.

People need to get their fingers out of their **** and stop thinking that a shodan is something magical or that it makes someone a hard case? These grades are modern and are a very new concept but then again so are most of the arts that they are associated with? How much does a shodan actually have in common with the origins of the fighting system? F^&K ALL!

I could tell you the story about a man who was a shodan and then ended up a cripple due to a car accident. He's still training and holds a high rank. Its a persons heart, mind, ability and determination that count!

People are hard cases because of how life moulds them and not because of the art they wish to pursue!!

Best wishes

idai

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OK here is my two cents worth. First, I must say that your description makes it complicated to answer without a long answer. I skimmed your description and one thing jumped out and grabbed me that I feel should "NEVER" be used to describe a first degree black belt from any style. That was near the end of your description where you mentioned something about a black belt having "Mastered" basics. To me the term Mastered when used in any way related to the martial arts means an individual that has an extraordinary level of skill, knowledge, understanding, and application. to put it clearly a level that would take at least 20 years to reach, and a level that many people, no matter how much they train, or for how long will ever reach.

So what is the level of skill that a first degree black belt should have...? He should have learned all of the basics. by that i mean that when asked to demonstrate any of them he can do it without hesitation, chin scratching,...etc. He can do the basics, but is not necessarily good at them. He may or may not be fair at fighting or sparring. Why do I say that? In Japan color belts are collectively called Mudansha and all black belt ranks collectively called Yudansha. The "Mu" in Mudansha means, "Nothing". It is the way the Japanese and Okinawans see color belts. They see them as knowing "Nothing". Once a student has reached first degree black belt, the real martial arts instructors and masters now see someone that has endured the pain and hard work necessary to learn the basics. They see that individual as someone that might have what it takes to Learn the Way.

Now, As I have stated many times before the Okinawans and Japanese have for many years what came to be known as the Age/Rank chart. It was not some law or something that every style had set in concrete. But it was used by most traditional styles. Therefore the minimum age at which anyone could be even considered for a black belt was 16. Why? Because to the Japanese a boy becomes a man at age 16. They felt that no one under that age could have the maturity, technique, dedication, attention span, understanding , applications,....etc. to be ready for black belt.

NOTE: Having started my training in 1967, I can say that it was not until the 1970's that schools (here in the U.S.A) began to allow children to train and also start promoting them to black belt. so do we have better understanding of who should have a black belt than the Asians that developed the arts? I think not.

In the late 60's or early 70's Black Belt Magazine said (after a large survey of all styles of MA in the U.S.A.) that:

A) Less than 3% of all MA students (of any style) ever made it to first degree black belt.

B) Of those few that did, less than 50% of them ever reached second degree black belt

And they had already stated that children were not allowed to train in almost all Ma schools. So it stands to reason that there were no children with black belts.

Bottom line here is this as far as I'm concerned.... Children having black belts just should not cheapen the rank. Calling them junior black belts, [probationary, black belts, or any of the other common terms simply are a rip off. These all came about during the 70's when the Koreans came to western countries by the boat load. They set up MA schools, began selling contracts for black belt, charged high rates, and promoted often. Those new black belts then often opened their own schools where they further bent the requirements to make money. The sad part is not the outright fraud perpetuated on the public. The sad part is the large number of good people that believe in their hearts that they are doing the public a service by teaching kids, promoting them fast, ...etc. Many times I've had these same people tell me that they are helping instil values in youth. They need to stop and take a look at what they are instilling. This does not do anyone any good except the person getting paid for it.

...

A first degree black belt in most arts is called "shodan", or translated from Japanese, "beginning step". It doesn't mean you are a master of the art. It means you have proven yourself as a serious student practitioner of the art and have risen above the beginner "kyu" ranks, or color belt ranks in modern parlance. The idea that wearing a black belt means you have mastered a martial art is nonsense that has been promoted by action movies and comic books.

One isn't really considered a master in most arts until they have achieved 6th Dan (Rokudan), and most practitioners that have genuinely achieved that high of a rank are at least in their 50's or 60's. The highest ranked (9th, 10th Dan) practitioners are nearly always in their 80's or above. A black belt doesn't have anything to do with one's physical fitness or prowess, or even the ability to win matches, so the idea that an elderly shodan would need to be able to physically dominate a 25 year old in a fight is a false premise.

Would I ever promote a child to a Dan rank? No. Not unless they were upper teens and truly exceptional.

Ha, I was just thinking about this topic after reading a different post.

I have mixed feelings about this.

I neither condone, or accept, junior Black Belts. Kids want rewards as we all know, but usually a junior black belt means he or she has "mastered" the required katas, or has gotten good at twirling a staff fancy like. This does not mean the kid is good at defending him or herself at all. In other words in my opinion the junior black belt is for naught bc the kid may not be able to defend themselves. If the school bypasses junior black belts and the kid is wearing a black equivalent to an adults; well there is a problem there. I strongly disapprove of that.

In my OPINION only adults can earn a 1st Dan. Ages 18 and over and only if the master sees great maturity in the student. I also do not believe a 1st dan can be earned in 4 yrs or less, unless the student trained daily.

As for women and weight = yes and no. I new a girl named Razell (125lbs) who was a 4th degree black and fought with such violent fluidity it was truly amazing. She was good and she knew it. She used to host fights after school and she beat the **** out of several of the football players. Hell she knocked me out once. She was hot too... anyways...

As for the elderly, It would be nice to give them a 1st dan after such hard work and dedication but I would not suspect them to win most fights. Can it happen? Yes. But not likely.

At the end of the day though in my opinion a 1st Dan can either be a reward for being an outstanding martial artist or merely a belt around your waist. I see it as the latter. I know plenty of black belts who are awful fighters and many black belts who would kick my ***. It all comes down to what the student has learned and applied. Not what color their belt is.

If that made any sense at all.

Belts and ranks can be just a positive motivation for some people to continue training. They do not necessarily mean anything. Most combat sports do not even have them. So if you ask me anyone that can pass the exam whatever time of training, age, gender he/she may is, is qualified to get a black belt.

The reason why...as in everything else, is better to have equal criteria that can not be subjected to other issues and that is the exam.

There are some things wrong with your statement. Black belt doesn't make one a master of anything. There are adults that should not have a black belt. A small male or female can successfully use self defense tactics against a much larger male. Remember in self defense is the objective is not winning. It is to survive. The only thing required is to be able to do enough to survive. That could be to maim, kill, or run away. The mentality of a sports athlete is to win. That is not self defense. Who can earn or not earn a black belt in not a philosophy. Just like not being able to legally drive, purchase alcohol, or sign a legal binding contract.

Having children as black belt is a sign. But the real thing that makes a school a mcdojo is the poor quality of instruction. The watering down of expectation in order to mass produce a lot of belt promotions.

Edit:

Bullshido is full of a lot of things without real knowledge. Sure they have some fighters. Other than what Pugspaw explained let me explain it from a judo perspective. In judo competition you have junior ranks and senior ranks. Kano wanted his art taught to children, but had to do without teaching children to kill or maim. Once a person was moved into a senior rank they can no longer compete against children. In America w still consider a 16 year old a child. But in Judo/Japan that 16 year old have to be mentally and physically able to hold their own again adults of every age. When I was about 15 I got a chance to have randori against the Late Phil Porter. I was their to train with the Olympic team. This was in 84. I was young, strong, cocky(big ego), fast, flexible, etc. Phil was an old man frail, slow man. He was the head of USA Judo. He was the only person at the time that I had seen with a Master's rank. I didn't know anything about red/white belts. I didn't care what his rank was. I was going to beat him (sports minded). However he beat me so bad. It was the best lesson that I had ever had. He beat me and told me abut as he did it. Not trash talk, but he told me about how I thought I was going to beat him with my speed and strength. He said he no longer had those things but he makes up for it with good technique. I became a much better judoka after taking my beating.

You can't earn a black belt n judo before the age of 16. It is rare that anyone will earn it at 16.

An 8 yr old does not have the physical maturity o mental maturity. They don't have the hand/eye coordination. They do not have the fine motor skills necessary to use their art effectively as a whole to defend themselves long enough to escape most adult attackers. Again it is not about saying I won the fight. There may be some exceptions, but that is not the norm. Just like there are 10 year old that are better drivers than 30 yr old and may act more responsible, but that is not the norm. The law says that the 10 year old can't drive legally on the streets. Traditionally since martial arts weren't designed for children whose bodies are still developing no one could earn the rank before you reach 16 in Matsubayashi Ryu (Shorin Ryu), Judo and other. Some styles it is 18. I can't tell you much about those.

I can only speak about the ones that I have trained or do still train. Also in judo the curriculum is different for junior ranks and senior ranks. There is not junior black belt. Once my instructor promoted me to a senior rank I could no longer compete against juniors even though my age said I was a junior.

Black belt is an accomplishment, but it is not the end. There are things being taught that children aren't responsible enough to have that knowledge. There are adults that I won't teach. It is good not to have a commercial dojo. I can refuse to teach anyone that I want. I don;t need you as a student to pay my overhead. I'm not afraid of losing you (your money) as a student if I do not promote you. You must earn a rank on our dojo. There is not a 5 year average to earning a black belt in our dojo. Very few will earn it, but those that do have proved themselves.

Someone should receive a black belt when they have learned the basics to a satisfactory level and have the required amount of mental maturity, whether it be a junior black belt or a first dan. Whether they can beat another black belt or not is irrelevant.

Be practical. Crazy goals like losing two dress sizes in a couple weeks will almost always end inside tears, lost motivation and greater than a little comfort eating. You can only ever seem like a thinner you – so set standards you realize you can achieve.