Forms... predicting movements?

You always look be fore you change direction.

Punches are not always punches and can represent grabs. If you grab a person and pull them off balance into a different direction redirecting their momentum you need to look first also. Where the head goes the body follows not just your opponents but your own as well. It is a small detail but if the timing is right it can make your techniques a lot easier. If you add a lot of really small details they end up being a big thing in a technique.

@ Chris: Funny spelling!

First, to answer your question, Punching while keeping the other fist at your hip or one hand returning to the hip while the other punches is always indicative of the hand at the hip having grabbed and pulled the attacker.

Forms are not meant to be looked at as if they were a series of movements that are to be used against attacks. Forms are a catalog in a sense. Each position, stance, and movement (of hands and feet) have multiple real life applications against one attacker. Things like one hand near or touching the body while the other is doing something means that the hand near the body is doing something in conjunction with the hand that is obviously doing something. Before people criticize forms they might want to think about this.... Would the old masters that developed forms have created them and practiced them a lot if they were not of some very relevant use? That would imply that the old masters were ignorant of what they were doing. Nothing in history supports that in fact the old masters were considered to be some of the deadliest men to walk the face of the earth. so either they were fools, or most of us have not been taught why we do forms. And that is the case. in the over 46 years that I have been involved with the martial arts I have searched every place I could to find people that know the most relevant uses for the things seen in forms. The disappointing thing is that most of the well know masters I have met do not know anything about what the true applications of their forms are. So it is no surprise that I see so many negative comments about Kata. What is surprising is that the people criticizing never use the logic that the old masters did not waste their time, and that they were good fighters. so why do people instead of looking for the meaning they don't have would rather just dismiss forms as a waste. That does not seem logical or an open mined way to approach the subject.

Why don't the people that dismiss forms seek out those that can show them real ways? Granted they are hard to find, but there are a few regulars here that can show some of the real applications. Last year I held a seminar weekend and that was the topic. This summer I plan to have another seminar where that subject is sure to come up.

If anyone is interested look up Choki Motobu He is famous for his fighting ability, Yet he spent much of his time practicing the Naihanchi Kata. Why would he do that if it was not of value to him?

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@Jim R - the form is ITF Taekwondo hyung, not Hwa Rang Do - a style more similar to chinese styles.

@John - whether you know it or not, you also do kata. If you shadowbox, kick a kicking bag, or do any solo practice, you are doing kata. Part of it is memorization, but you are not understanding the whole thing: that part that's important to memorize isn't so much the movements in the form, it's the principles and applications therein. Of course it's got nothing to do with fighting. It's only purpose is self-defense, not fighting. No instructor would tell you go get into the ring and say - "go spar". He'll first tell you how to spar, what techniques to use, how to condition for those techniques, how to counter... And how do you remember all that? You could take notes. You could watch videos. Or you could assemble forms. Forms were invented in the days before it was practical to use books and videos, so the only way was through forms.

Forms are NOTHING but a training aid. Many styles do not overtly use them, and their instructors are adept at teaching. But if you practice alone, you are executing a kata.

@Mack, there are many interpretations of the hand pulling back. There is no one answer to it. Knowledge, therefore, is in the exploration of the purposes, not in knowing what they are. If anyone told you what those applications are, the answers are useless unless you go back and practice to see how they work for you.

Here are a few applications of a hand pulling back:

1) you are pulling an opponent into your punch/strike

2) you are disarming an opponent as you punch

3) you are creating a hip rotation, facilitated by the pulling back which symbiotically facilitates the moving forward of the shoulder supporting the punch.

In actual self-defense, you need not chamber back if the situation does not warrant it. It is this misunderstanding that people think that kata (hyung) is useless: you are not taught "what if's" in kata/huyng; rather, you are taught principles (which, by the way, includes strategy). Forms are as useless as a kicking bag - or a shadow - is in a fight or self-defense. The reality is that it is only a tool.

EDIT: another application for the chamber back is to consider why it was out to begin with: that could have been another strike, distraction, or thrust with a weapon; the hand chambering is simply being brought back to guard.

EDIT: @John, yes - forms do not provide the unpredictability that regular sparring does. That's why forms are not the only means to teach a topic. Forms do serve many purposes, just like a pen/paper does, or a video can, when you take notes. It is what you get out of it. It is possible that, through your eyes, what you've seen is from people who have no clue what forms are for. That wouldn't be a surprise - a lot of people these days have no idea what forms are form. But even in shadow boxing: don't fighters work on combinations and imagined movements from their opponents? Don't fighters have favorite counters and combinations? They repetitively practice these techniques. And even coaches will have fighters get in a ring and purposefully limit the match to just one kind of striking, just so either/both can work on a particular thing. These are nothing more than drills, and drills are training aids - even if the drills involve the predictability of movements. It isn't so much about predicting a movement, by the way: a person must get used to doing a technique correctly and work up to using it in the unpredictable nature of sparring.

EDIT: @Mack - I don't think so. You can kick someone and break their leg and predict that they will go down. But if they are high on drugs or alcohol, or, you didn't execute the technique properly, then you can't predict your opponent will succumb to the movement. Forms should never rely on the opponent responding to something; each movement relies on the "at the moment" snapshot in time. You see this all the time in demonstrations of self-defense: the attacker gets kicked in the face and they fling into a backward flying 360 degree barrel roll and land - unconscious - on the floor. This is a great crowd-pleasing technique, but it's not something you want to rely on on the street. If you get it on the street, that's fine; but have a backup plan just in case.

There are some techniques that when expressed in a form should give pause as to the difficulty level, and therefore, more training to pull off. Just because you can do it well in a form does not mean it will translate that way on the street. Pressure points, throws, joint locks - they're all resistant to drug- or alcohol-induced perps, and some require absolute precision. In an ideal world, they'll always work. But we don't live in an ideal world.

On the other hand, we in Aikido use a technique called "invitation". We "invite" the oncoming attacker to strike or take something - for example, a wrist. So, we can give a higher probability that that is what they'll take, giving you the favorable odds of pulling off a wrist throw. And like before, "invitation" does not work on a drug or alcohol induced, or psychotic, perpetrator.

But, invitation isn't evident in our forms, per se. I have a feeling that a few techniques can be interpreted as an "aiki" movement. But such would not have been implemented by Gen Choi when he invented Hwarang-Hyung, it is not known if he even had any experience in Aikido, or even Hapkido (which, as best I can tell, does not use invitation). So it would have to be an afterthought.

(you didn't ask, but, this aiki thing about invitation is a smaller part of a bigger picture called harmonizing with the opponent; hence the "harmony" namesake in both aikido ("ai") and hapkido ("hap") )

I personally don't like kata and forms. For me it's about as useful as taking an exam in college. You learn it, you memorize it, then you take the test and you forget it as quickly as you learned it.

It has nothing to do with fighting, it has no application in fighting. It doesn't help you with strategy, it's not very athletic in that sense. People may disagree. Fine do that but I'll stick to sparing.

Some people have said that forms and kata is therapeutic. If you feel that it helps you then by all means go for it.

@ Jim

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Kata is fixed movements that are memorized and executed in a certain order. When I spar I never know what my opponent is going to do. I don't imagine an opponent. He is actually there. I just don't see it's usefulness and how it can be applied in a beneficial way.

@ possum

I see what you're saying. I do. But shadowboxing for me is still unpredictable. There is no set of movements and techniques. The way I see shadowboxing is an excellent way of practicing footwork, technique without the interruption of an opponent.

The difference between shadowboxing and kata is that kata can be done in a correct way. Or more accurately a correct order. You learn techniques, footwork and so on and you execute them in a correct order. I think that if you remove that from kata it would be more beneficial.

As I said, some people think kata is great and that it helps them, that is great. And maybe I'm not right person to judge this since I've given kata very, very little time. I have some experience with kata but no where enough to call my self even knowledgeable.

My opinion comes from just the things I have seen and from my own training. If you would look at kata from my eyes, with the limited experience I have in it, would you think it's good? I mean my base is boxing and I continued to MMA. There is no kata. And when you see it you don't think highly of it.

John when you learned the alphabet and started writing words did you use all the letters in the same order, why not? You learned them in that order you should use the letters in the same order you learned them.

Kata is just an alphabet of techniques, they were not meant to be used in the order they were learned. All the techniques are meant to be used in sparing and out of order

edit:>

as pugpaws said when ever the hand comes back to the hip it represents you holding part of your opponent.

kata doesnt contain blocks, they contain grappling techniques and strikes. the obvious movement you see is not the only application to that movement.

the techniques often refereed to as blocks, are not blocks the word block is actually a mis-translation in korean, japanese and chinese languages. if you look up those words not one means block. i forget what the chinese and korean languages translate too but it was not far off from the japanese which means to receive.

and if you think about it why would you tie up two of your weapons to block one of your opponents weapons, this makes no sense, it makes far more sense to be a grappling application then a block.

as for predicting a human reaction in an idea situation they sometimes can. but every thing must fall in to place for this to happen.

There is no martial arts ESP. You cannot predict movement. If you pull someone off balance their head won't necessarily turn the opposite direction. Attempting to predict movement means you have a preconceived notion of how your going to react. BAD IDEA Fighting is reactive and reflexive not predictive.

If you know someone has a particular move or movement they like to use you can certainly use that against them but its still reactive or reflexive not predictive.

I am not familiar with the form Hwa-Rang, I assume it is from the art of the same name.

But that returning hand in most forms is a grapple. It is attached to the opponent, drawing them into a strike or different grapple.

Learn of your forms well, and learn the meaning of them, Some erroneously think forms have little to do with actual performance, but that is incorrect. The important terms (in Japanese, I don't know the Korean terms) for understanding forms are bunkai ( the breaking down of techniques for understanding of the principals that guide them), and oyo (practical application of same). With a good instructor who knows how forms work, they will improve your overall performance greatly, by imparting both understanding of technique, and ability to apply it in reality.

@ John: kata has everything to do with application of technique in real altercations. You just don't grasp the concept of it. Learn kata well, it will improve your sparring a lot if you understand what you are doing there..

The returning hand can be a pull, can be an elbow strike to someone behind you, can be a twist of your opponents arm e.t.c....It has as you have said multiple applications.

There is a very very dangerous application if a sharp weapon is used by the practitioner and I rarely use the word dangerous.

Tsu kuri is the Japanese name for fitting in eg practicing form and position and its a must for learning any trow.

Funny dace!

"old masters ........ were good fighters."

This quote has no basis in fact, only in folklore. There is absolutely no proof any of these old masters were good fighters other than stories with no actual 100% verifiable proof. One publicized fight Motobu choking supposedly won after tiring out a boxer, kicked him in the groin and the hit him in the jaw to "win". Not a great fighter just a myth based on a street fighter nothing more.