My definition of TAX justice: I keep what I earn and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree?

Who is going to feed and house and pay for medical care and Cadillac Escalades and cell phone for all the Ghetto-Dwelling Social Parasites that vote Democrat?

I agree. First, the Federal Reserve is no more Federal than the Federal Express. It is a PRIVATE bank, that took over the power to make money, from our government, when the constitution never gave them the power to let anyone else create our money. The income tax is only used to pay back the interest that the Federal Reserve charges our government for money should be making, instead of borrowing. The Federal Reserve only benefits the Globalists. The Income Tax only benefits the Globalists, the IRS only benefits the globalists, and none of these entities are even actually legal or constitutional, nor do they have any right to exist!

Many people have misconceptions about the income tax, because the government has given so much misinformation for so long, but I have learned a great deal of interesting information recently, from alternative sources, including Aaron Russo's documentary, that I watched for free on Google Video....called America, from Freedom to Fascism!

Some taxes are necessary, in order to run the government, and some are not. The constitution allows for direct taxes that are apportioned among the states based on population, and indirect taxes, that are uniform, throughout all the states. Income tax does not fall into either category, and therefore is unconstitutional. *sm*

I certainly understand your point(s), but I do believe we need to "pool" our money in some way to address national interests and programs (we can debate what those might be another time), but I am particularly interested in responding to what we might replace the income tax and IRS with. Here goes:

I realize this idea will never find legs, but I will forever "stay the course "(to coin a phrase :-) ...sorry).

In my lifetime I have been exposed to what I call "the underground economy." This is where people deal only in cash for wages, purchases ...you name it. This is an absolute HUGE problem that most people don't seem to want to admit to or deal with. When I say HUGE ...I mean it is totally unbelievable to many people.

Second, I read occasionally where some multi-millionaires or billionaires "escape" from paying income taxes through various tax "loopholes" (good tax attorneys).

Here is a proposal: why not get rid of income tax (and maybe even property tax on a primary residence so seniors and those on fixed incomes can't be taxed out of their homes), eliminate the IRS saving billions (yes - honest - billions) in collection costs and eliminate the underground economy (which would inject billions of dollars into our budget that currently escapes us)?

How? Pass a Federal sales tax at a constitutionally limited percent. Only food, medical costs including health insurance, your primary residence and one auto up to say 25k per year would be exempt from the tax. I believe such a system would result in MORE money for health care, infrastructure improvements, educational improvements, etc. Please note: EVERYONE and EVERY BUSINESS that buys something outside of the exempted items would pay taxes (no BS exemptions - no tax attorneys).

The rich buy things because they can. The poor would not suffer for purchasing food, health care, a home (if - when, they can) and transportation. The money is collected efficiently at the point of sale. Because all states that currently have sales tax audit those results (only 5 do not have state sales tax, I believe), there is no need to have the Feds audit. No more IRS. The states would do both at the same time and get paid (by the Feds) for their trouble (very little).

Once this is in place, then we talk about the government living within their means. If you and I and the rest of America does well financially and spends money, the government budget benefits. When we have to tighten up ---so will the government, especially if a balanced budget amendment takes root.

Will such a system EVER get legs? Not with tax attorneys, CPA's, bookkeepers, IRS employees and many others sitting in DC harrassing the crap out of law makers getting the kick backs.

And, the politicians don't like this idea for another reason: if it were implemented, every time you purchased something you would know exactly how much it costs to sustain our local, state AND federal governments. Policitians don't like people reminded so frequently.

IF this idea is considered a vaiable alternative to the BS system now in place and always changing, do you think we could find more than a few politicians with the courage to represent this idea? ? ?

If you answered no, maybe we are headed for a tax revolt (again).

Taxes are supposed to be money for the common good. The roads you drive on, the police, the fire department, the armed forces, and the schools all run off tax money.

So why taxes? Because humans are basically greedy self-serving creatures. A prime example was what happened when the markets were more unregulated, e.g. monopolies, oligopolies and trusts.

If we left it up to voluntary contributions, this country wouldn't be here. Why? In a capitalist system, wealth migrates upwards. In other words, you end up with an extremely skewed distribution of wealth (like we have right now). With 10% of the population in control of 95% of the wealth, a volunatry system would require those 10% to donate a HUGE amount in order to preserve the basic services. This, of course, is unlikely to say the least as they already complain about how much taxes they have to pay already.

This kind of wealth distribution can also lead to more dire consequences. Money brings power and lots of money brings lots of power. Now you have a situation similar to the French Revolution, where almost all the wealth was controlled by a few individuals that used there wealth and power to keep pretty much the rest of population dirt poor and suppresed. In case you're not familiar with it, it didn't end to well for the aristocrats (see guillotine).

In other words, in an "every man for himself" type of environment, no one really wins except for a scant handful. It's impossible to maintain a society in such circumstances, as those without can only be pushed so far. Ever see someone with nothing left to lose and doesn't care if they die or not because life is a living hell? Now imagine a 270 million of them, all coming for you.

So, we have taxes. The poor pay them for the basic services. The rich pay them for the police to protect their wealth and property from the poor. It's a mutally beneficial relationship, for lack of a better way to phrase it.

I agree the welfare system is broken. The system should be designed to help people back on their feet, not continuous life support.

However, the truth of the matter is that this country is in a lot of debt and taxes would need to be raised significantly in order to remedy the situation. Right now, every man woman and child in this country have an $18,000 debt on their shoulders. That's how big our debt is. That's what things like the war in Iraq contribute to.

Taxes are an unfortunate necessity. Until our natures change, it is probably the only way to ensure a stable society.

~X~

So what would you replace income tax with then? Some things have to be paid for by the public purse. There is no way around it when you have hundreds of millions of people living together in one nation; philanthropy and 'helping each other out' just ain't gonna happen. So what do you want? A flat sales tax? Hardly fair. Maybe we should graduate or eliminate THOSE taxes if you want justice. By the way, there is NO country in the world that doesn't charge taxes of some kind. Not even Lichenstein!

Well, I don't mind paying taxes for things like firemen, policemen, our military....but all the giveaways need to stop. Why do we, as a society, complain (rightfully) about the health dangers of smoking, yet our tax dollars go to help out the tobacco farmers? Why do we give Coca-Cola and McDonalds (just for 2 examples) corporate welfare? Those companies make more in a day than a lot of us will see in our lifetimes, I 'm sure.

I think we certainly need to SIMPLIFY our tax system - it is pretty sad that our tax code is so complicated. If you can't afford to hire an accountant, you are probably over-paying. Why not a flat tax? Or a national sales tax? I actually support the national sales tax - get all the illegal income that way. Drug dealers have to eat....and, of course, we would have to implement a way for the poor to *not* have to pay taxes.

I can't say I love paying taxes, but I wouldn't mind nearly so much if they didn't waste our money. There is *NO* excuse for our veterans to be treated shabbily....eliminate corporate welfare and insane freebies. Reform welfare and require drug testing in order to collect welfare. We should spend far less on helping people who sit on their asses all day, and far more to supplement the income of our low-wage earners.

Taxes are the price we pay for having a community, or for having a civilzation, as opposed to an anarchy.

Taxes pay for roads, and police and prisons, and they pay for the leaders we elect to govern us. Without taxes, everyone would be on their own and there would be no group effort.

But I do think that taxes are way too high, and the govt spends way too much. I'd like to see a flat tax, the same amount per person, and absolutely minimal govt. No forced charity, no forced subsidies, none of the massive over-regulation that makes up most western political systems.

Taxes cannot be eliminated if you want to maintain society and community. But they can easily be cut by 90% if people are willing to be responsible for their own lives.

So what you are saying is that because a millionaire pays more in taxes he can ride on any road he wants because he probably paid for more roads. I, on the other hand who am middle class don't pay as much because I don't make as much can only drive on one street because that is all my taxes could afford to pay for. If the millionaire's mansion catches fire they will put it out totally but if your house, as a middle class person, catches fire they will only save 1/3 of it because that is all the taxes you could afford. If you get sick and can no longer work but are not old enough to retire do you have a way of paying off your mortgage, by food and clothing for yourself and dependants for another 20 to 40 years? Tell us.. is this what you advocate? It sure seems so.

To steal, its a good thing for the thief, but not for the robbed.

The same thing happens with murderer, and other crimes and conducts we avoided, to become a civilized world. We renounced to those wild customs, to get the privilege of living in peaceful, fair, just, and democratic civil societies. That's one of the reasons what governments are, and were created for. To get our rights protected. So, as an organized collectivity, we all pay to make it work.

Yeah, I know YOU make enough to build an interstate highway system, but I don't. Can I use yours? What about your aircraft carrier, will you share that?

And who will buy the fuel to get the guys home from Iraq? I certainly can't cover much of that - maybe three or four guys. We should take up a collection, I guess. Can we get somebody to do that for free? Maybe we should hire somebody to do that.

They'll probably need air traffic controllers when their planes come in. Is there a club of volunteers for that? Or does somebody pay them?

That would be nice but.....

Where would the funds come from for the following:

Building schools

Making and repairing highways and roads

Building dams

Paying teachers, police

Supporting Fire Departments and paying firemen

THe list could go on and on. Until there is a way to pay for our public services without tax money, you will always pay taxes.