Inheritance tax - Can we please cut the crap about "being taxed twice on the same money"?

Good Point!

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

I'd be more than happy to share a few things I learned in logic classes with you.

"Can we stop the lies? We are all taxed more than once on the same money. We pay taxes when we earn it, when we spend it, and taxes on our homes and cars." - This is a classical "tu quoque" fallacy (although it's inverted). What you are arguing is that because we all have to pay multiple different taxes the estate tax is NOT a form of double taxation. This is not logically valid, as it does not provide an argument for how the estate tax isn't double taxation. What it does argue is that things like sales taxes and property taxes ARE double taxation. But simply because they are (we'll assume) does not imply that estate taxes are not, or even that they are morally acceptable. What this statement boils down to is that because everybody has to be double taxed on certain things it is acceptable for the wealthy to be double taxed more often.

"Poor and working people pay all these taxes, not just the wealthy." - Appeal to emotion and/or tu quoque. You're again implying that because the "poor" and "working people" have to pay one kind of tax a different kind of tax imposed on a different economic class entirely is morally acceptable.

"Matter of fact, poor and working people usually can't afford full-time accountants and lawyers to find ways for them to legally evade taxes, as the wealthy often do." - Appeal to emotion with little in the way of factual justification. The "evasions" used by the rich are to take advantage of loopholes that the "poor and working people" don't qualify for in the first place. You can't deduct capital gains if you never invested to begin with. That they can't afford them doesn't even play into the equation, as those accountants and lawyers wouldn't be able to help them no matter how much they were paid. No accountant on earth is going to be able to find a way for me to take dependent deductions when I'm single with no kids and live alone.

"But the wealthy are taxed on money that most of us never get, like a multi-million dollar inheritance. There is no estate tax unless you leave over $2 million to your child." - Appeal to emotion. You are trying to make us feel that the amount of the inheritance, and the fact that we don't get one, somehow makes this a different situation from a lower level inheiritance.

So basically I'm telling you that your "argument" about "cutting the crap about being taxed twice on the same money" isn't logical in the slightest. Nowhere have you made a logical argument showing how an estate tax IS NOT a form of double taxation. Instead you've merely said that because many people are, in a way, double taxed, and because this involves a small percentage of the population, then it is perfectly acceptable. Your conclusion does not follow.

If you would prefer a perfectly pragmatic study, nothing but numbers and facts, that has already been done. Check out the link in my sources for a Joint Economic Committee study on the economics of the estate tax. The results might surprise you: the estate tax actually hurts the economy for EVERYONE. Here is the executive summary:

This paper documents the extensive costs associated with the federal estate tax. Specifically, the report finds:

The existence of the estate tax this century has reduced the stock of capital in the economy by approximately $497 billion, or 3.2 percent.

The distortionary incentives in the estate tax result in the inefficient allocation of resources, discouraging saving and investment and lowering the after-tax return on investments.

The estate tax is extremely punitive, with marginal tax rates ranging from 37 percent to nearly 80 percent in some instances.

The estate tax is a leading cause of dissolution for thousands of family-run businesses. Estate tax planning further diverts resources available for investment and employment.

The estate tax obstructs environmental conservation. The need to pay large estate tax bills often forces families to develop environmentally sensitive land.

The estate tax violates the basic principles of a good tax system: it is complicated, unfair and inefficient.

In addition, a review of the arguments in favor of the estate tax suggests that the tax produces no benefits that would justify the large social and economic costs.

The estate tax is a "virtue tax" in the sense that it penalizes work, saving and thrift in favor of large-scale consumption.

Empirical and theoretical research indicates that the estate tax is ineffective at reducing inequality, and may actually increase inequality of consumption.

The enormous compliance costs associated with the estate tax are of the same general magnitude as the tax's revenue yield, or about $23 billion in 1998.

The deduction for charitable bequests stimulates little or no additional giving.

The estate tax raises very little, if any, net revenue for the federal government. The distortionary effects of the estate tax result in losses under the income tax that are roughly the same size as estate tax revenue.

With all due respect, your premise is a bit over board. Even the Laffer curve preducts no such thing; it only predicts that the is a tax rate level that will maximize revenue. Obviously, at a 0% marginal rate, income tax revenue will be $0. With the exception of a few people who may want to work charitably, at a 100% marginal rate income tax revenue will approach $0. There is a point between these where revenue is maximized. Do you know where that is?

You said yourself people are taxed twice. So obviously there is no lie. Your twisting the argument to make it a plight about the poor and to wag your finger at those evil rich.

So how about the middle class person who inherits the family farm. The land and machinery could be worth several million.

So Is it fair for someone like that to lose the family farm that makes only a modest life for them because they cannot afford to pay the estate tax on it?

How about you argue the facts and cut the bs.

=yes you could incorportate, once you get the inheritence, but if whoever left the estate didnt do it you are out of luck this time.

So to you the money is "every ones or the governments" and not a persons or their families...

There are very few people in this country that get left millions of dollars , the estate tax basically hurts small businesses and small farms that have a net worth of higher then 2 million but the family may not have the 1 million in cash to pay the tax.

See If you leave your family farm to your kids , the land I am sure is worth more then 2 million , thus your kids would have to sell it to pay the tax..

I think proponents of the tax (I include myself) should embrace the name "death tax". Assuming someone has to be taxed to pay for government services (although some Republicans seem to deny even this), who better to tax - the dead who have no use for the money or the living who do? How the party that claims to be all about rewarding personal initiative keeps a straight face while supporting keeping income taxes higher to allow tax breaks for trust fund kids, I'll never know.

Bravo!

The national sales tax idea is good one, too. If everybody were taxed the same percent it would avoid 'April Grief' for the many and wouldn't harm the 'haves'. Ten percent of a $100k cost for a second hand Ferrari is ten percent. Ten percent of the cost of groceries is ten percent.

Trouble is the powers that be will always find ways to screw with their bottom line.

I 'm not rich, far from it. I dont own anything expect a 10 year old Honda.

Though I totally disagree with you. When your Nan or whoever left you a family item were you taxed on it? No

If they left you $200 were you taxed on it? No

So why should the fact that your rich and its $2,000,000 mean you are taxed?

You can't steel from the rich and give to the poor. Robin Hood tried that and look where it got him.

Also if I was rich and then died why shouldn't my son get 100% of my money? I worked hard for it. I paid tax on it. Whats mine is his.

You won't get anywhere in life be envious of others. If you want something then go and get it.

Here's a newsflash-- You receive a federal income tax deduction for the state and local taxes you pay. If you take the standard deduction it's an estimation. Or you can file long form itemization and deduct actual sales taxes and so on.

But there's more-- How is it not an unconstitutional taking in violation of the 5th amendment for the government to essentially steal from the intended beneficiaries?

And when will we stop hearing that it's only 2% that are affected?!

If you think the inheritance tax hurts the rich you are fooling yourself.

"Poor and working people pay all these taxes, not just the wealthy. Matter of fact, poor and working people usually can't afford full-time accountants and lawyers to find ways for them to legally evade taxes, as the wealthy often do."

This proves my statement, the inheritance tax is unecessary and by your own admission, unevenly distributed.

Our government already takes away 30% of our pay, they have more than enough to address the needs of our nation, they just dont know how to properly spend and budget. Giving them more money wont help them anymore than giving a junkie more crack will help them.

Do you know how much a house is worth in some parts of the country? Do you realize that the folks dying these days are leaving thier estates to children who make /less/ money than they did, because of falling real wages? Do you want ordinary, middle-class people to be able leave thier homes to thier children?