If the OT is a reflection of pre civilized man's view of God, should we get rid of it?

~Frankly, if Christians wanted to stop reading the Torah, I'd have no problem with it. It's the Jewish bible, and it seems that many Christians just want to MIStranslate it and then REinterpret it so they can 'back engineer' (to borrow Julia D's great phrase) Jesus into the scriptures.

But when you say that the 'old' testament reflects 'pre civilised' man's view, you are wrong. The Torah is the story of the first organised monotheism in the world, and of the ten commandments - the moral bedrock of most societies. And those who know about Judaism and Jewish history also know that Judaism has always been about creating laws PRECISELY so that people can be civilised and so all humans can enjoy fair treatment.

You are just looking at some of the more colourful stories in the Torah and judging on that - have you actually read the entire Torah? With an accurate translation? No?

Then you're not really qualified to judge, are you? :)

And though you probably don't intend disrespect, it's really not that nice for me as a Jew to read you bashing my bible and suggesting getting rid of it!!!

I applaud your concern for your fellow nonbelievers; it is interesting that "whenever Atheists bring up Old Testament stories about God's behavior .....for ancient Jews......no longer apply.

I can observe

1. atheists' read the Bible---for what---to understand or to discredit

2. get together to share perspective on God and support the atheists idea about God

3. confuses nonbelievers about God's love you have a limited understanding---He gave His only begotten Son because He love the world--you and me

But you guys and gals do not believe so why the concern?

The OT is the history of our belief and the NT is about the answering of the prophecies in the OT. That you get confused into thinking God is cruel at one point in time is just that, you are lost (due to misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about God) and since you and/or other nonbelievers pick out verses from the Bible what you what to nit-pick or to attempt at discrediting the Bible with no wonder you get lost. Read it with the intention of knowing God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit for in the Bible you will find the truth and the salvation we believers hold on to.

Life is short. live well, and it is never to turn from your sins---wrong doings. Peace out

As much as they might like to do away with the OT due to its unequivical contradictions with the NT they cannot.... their are two main reasons they can't completely eliminate the OT.

Firstly Jesus was Jewish and used OT predictions to verify his claim to be the Messiah. Those predictions were what gave his voice authority. He also would look pretty silly talking about how he came from King David lineage without a little bit of a backstory. And it would be difficult to say that the God you are worshipping was a member of another religion (that he was actually the King of) but we aren't going to mention it.

Second, and most important, the idea of Jesus dying for peoples sins requires that the Genesis story be included.... and whats more, it needs to be literal. In Genesis man was cursed with original sin which was the reason that Jesus had to sacrifice himself. If that story were removed the entire thing no longer works...... also if it is viewed as anything less than literal truth then Christians are saying that a real person died for a metaphorical story about sin..... which holds less water than a collander.

So you see they must keep the OT or else the entire narrative falls apart. It would be like watching Rocky 5 without having seen 1-4..... actually its not like that at all.

God was never cruel; He gave us life.

- He blessed Abraham and made him father of many nations

- He saved Daniel from the lion's den

- He saved Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendago from the fiery furnace

- He was with David when he slew Goliath

The old testament cannot be dismissed because it is our foundation. How can you fully understand the whole purpose of the NT if you do not first understand the OT? Without it, we wouldn't have the 10 Commandments, or the stories listed above.

We need both, the FULL word of God in order for us to understand what is means to live holy.

God Bless =)

If you look at the OT, the most common 'name' for God, since he had many (each presenting a feature of his character), was 'merciful, gracious and slow to anger. This means that the NT didn't come up with a suddenly loving God, after a hating one - He was always like that.

Yes, pastors will probably not chose to preach from a passage which shows God commanding the Israelites to wipe out the whole nation (including women children and cattle!). As a theology student i had to battle with this 'aspect' of God since it didn't fit MY 'christian' view of him.

The thing is, since God is a God of both justice and love, he sometimes needed to express his anger (which we cannot equate with human anger). Most of the time he is expressed as a God who is 'slow to anger', but for an example, if you read Psalm 2, which is a psalm for kings, it says that God's wrath is quickly kindled.

This might seem like a good example for a non-believer to say how the Bible is illogical and full of paradoxes. But the truth is, in many places in the Bible it is shown that God's anger is quickly kindled when it comes to kings - i.e. the higher position you're on, the less 'patient' God is with you - which is actually something good for other humans, since a lot of lives depend on you. God was always 'sensitive' when it came judges or kings who were unjust to people (especially helpless people like orphans or widows at that time).

So in that situation, God's anger is actually an act of mercy too.

Now regarding the wiping out of whole nations.

At that time, if a nation was stronger than another, that would mean that their god was stronger than the opponent's one. Prior to the arrival of the Israelites amongst other nations (after the exodus), all the neighboring nations heard of all the wonders Israel and their God did, and there were occasions where people from the pagan nations would join the Israelite tribe, and be saved. That may sound bad to our thinking and morals of today, but at that time, being part of Israel was the only means of reaching God (since God has instituted the whole religious system of being in contact with him and not dying) and being saved. God never intended for Israel to be exclusivity, and they were to accept any 'alien residing among them'. The other nations had time and chance be saved. Yes, the soteriology of that time was on a different level than it is now (and i won't go into the Biblical Theology of it now, books are written on this....but it was all part of God's plan), but that was the only way it worked then. Through Israel, all the nations were to be blessed - that was the promise given to Abraham way before - and God provided a vehicle of salvation for other nations too. And i repeat - there are numerous examples where individuals from pagan nations were saved by their faith (Rahab for an example).

The other thing is - we often forget what the surrounding nations were like - just watch the movie Apocalypto, and you'll understand why wiping some of them out was a favor for the world then. They were doing ghastly things (child sacrifice, etc.). And you can see that, whenever Israel indulged in such behavior, God would scatter them, punish them, but in the end always leave a small remnant.

When reading the OT, in its context, and seeing the principles behind it, i do not think that it is redundant, and never will be. The NT didn't 'replace' the OT, but it is just a continuation of God's plan of salvation.

Sorry for the length...this is really the shortest i would've written it. :)

Interesting question though

Edit

Oh, and i forgot to say - it's not the official Christian stance that the OT is only for ancient Jews.

ah, and here the ugly philosophical problem rears its ugly head. Since you do not remotely believe the OT makes any sense, the use of *we* creates a dilemma. Who do you mean by *we* ? nonbelievers ? If yes, perhaps you should follow the best example set by Hitler's Germany and have regular OT bonfires. They burned books deemed harmful to the dogma of the Third Reich. They believed, for example, jews are detrimental to progress and their beliefs were insidious and a impediment to humanity's progress, and very harmful.

Yes, by all means do get rid of it... what would be next ? the NT... ? Fahrenheit 452... would Baghavad Gita be next, it is full of superstition and nonsense ? Also, since torah is the first five books of the bible should we get rid of it ? and tell jews they are backward pagans ?

I would suggest making a list of books we need to *get rid of*

it was done already, by both Hitler's henchmen and the Vatican... neither effort went very far... human wisdom transcends hate, even though it always takes a long time...

Even Egypt was an advanced civilization, so scratch that part.

Man's view -- It specifically states it is not man's view

The atheist problem is not different from yours, it's Sola Scriptura. But even the Israelites were not allowed to interpret for themselves.

The whole question is, how did the Church understand what was being said. I often hear atheists say, look at this lurid behaviour being recommended and I know that the incident referred to was kept as an example of the decadence of society and not as an example to imitate !!

IF it's the Word of God, keep it. If not, don't. But don't let non-believers tell you what the text means !! Have we lost our minds.

Did you know that there are still Jews in this world? There's only 13 million of us, but we ARE still here. We don't have an "old" testament. We have ONE eternal covenant between God and His people Israel. God does NOT renege on His promises.

Christians may have re-named our book, and interpreted it to fit Christianity, but it still exists as the Hebrew Bible -- the Torah/Tanach.

I have often heard it said that the God of the Old Testament is vengeful, whereas Jesus’ teachings are more humane; that the Old Testament is about law, whereas the New Testament is about love. There are endless comparisons between the Hebrew Bible’s “eye for an eye” law (which has always been interpreted by the Jews to mean financial compensation rather than an eye itself) and Jesus’ magnanimous philosophy of “turn the other cheek.” It is undeniable that Judaism champions law above love, practice above faith, and religious service above theology and dogma, for which it has paid an enormous price in terms of popularity. Judaism maintains wholeheartedly that love without law is nothing more than meaningless sentimentalism, which will ultimately end in cruelty. As the popular saying goes, “He who is kind to those who are cruel will end up being cruel to those who are kind.”

…”Paul’s excoriation and condemnation of the law has directly influenced millions of people to see only oppression in the Torah.” “Judaism rejects these attacks. Law is the ultimate safeguard for love. The separation of law and religion has proved to be a great calamity for human civilization. First, it means that atrocities can be perpetrated in the name of God and no one can say that religious law forbids it. Furthermore, the Christian rejection of law as a religious discipline would guarantee religion’s divorce from the world and its realities. That religion has lost out to secularism as the mainstream guide to human life is a direct result of the detached role that religion began to play when Christianity abrogated the law. To say that religion cannot be about law is to say that religion is not designed to regulate human life!”

"Judaism for Everyone" by Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

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The main criteria are "lies". You know what are they; the heaven and the hell; and also the god. It is wrong 100% to tell the peoples, they go to heaven if they believe in god, and otherwise they will be sent to hell to suffer. Do you think by removing the OT the existence of god will survive?

Atheists argue that the god is cruel because you say the god is most merciful, loving. They quote the OT to prove otherwise.

It is man who created the god and the bible. The god, heaven and hell are nonexistence.

Peace!

The Law's purpose was so that we could understand how far short we all fall of God's perfect righteousness. The law is a "schoolmaster" which teaches us that we need God's grace (undeserved favor) and Christ's atoning death to pay for our sins.

Through the law we understand why Christ had to die. The OT's sacrificial system of temple worship (where God was distant, isolated, unreachable) teaches us the consequences of our sin so we can understand how serious of a thing it is for God to come down to earth in human flesh and die so that we could be together.

The OT provides a context wherein the Messiah's life, mission, death, and resurrection make sense.

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If you want to see uncivilized man's view of God look at all the OTHER ancient religions of the time (Molech, Baal, Ashera etc.) which focused primarily on fertility of crops, animals, and humans. By doing so you will see the stark contrast to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.