The usefulness, or lackthereof, of kata...(forms/poomse/hyungs)?

Where to start. This answer could be several books. I thank you for posting it. I had not seen this list before. Since you mentioned #1 as being the one in most question, I'll comment on it first. We were taught the concept of hard vs. soft and soft vs. hard in the 1960's. I did not begin to get it until the 80's and truly see the potential until years later. If you block a hard punch with a hard block, strike, .... The attacker registers it immediately and tries to do something else. However if you deflect very softly and only enough to divert the attack, the attackers mind is not as quick to continue. The sub conscious mind works faster than the conscious mind. (I'll prove that at my seminar in July. Callsignfuzzy, you may remember my little demo of this concept when we met.) The attackers mind is in an unconscious debate for a fraction of a second. It can't believe that the punch did not land. This is going on on a sub-conscious level. The lag is only a fraction of a second, but gives the defender the advantage since the attacker is not responding to the block, strike, ...etc. as quickly. I know that it sounds ridiculous to many of you. It is easily seen, felt, and quickly understood when demonstrated. In the last 20 years I have used a simple demonstration to make believers of hundreds of martial artists.

A common technique we use in my style is what some people call a fan block. My version is some what different. Say someone throws a right punch to my face. I can use my left hand to deflect. As the punch come in I raise my left open hand so that the back of my left hand brushes my right ear. The punch by that time has been deflected only slightly but passes harmlessly past my right side. While my left hand is coming up my right hand is following close behind it. It slides down the attackers arm and grabs his warm at the wrist. Once a person gets the timing of the whole thing right he can deflect the attack, distract the attackers mind, and control his balance by pulling the attacker slightly forward and to his left. In this way we intercept the attack, distract the attacker, control his balance by rooting him temporarily, and have control of the fight by limiting his options. That of course assumes that we finish things from there.

Hard blocks Vs. soft, and soft vs. hard can also be used this way. If the attacker punches, instead of blocking hard, and with a tight fist...... Use a knife hand block. Keep the hand formed into a knife hand but do not tighten it. Strike through the attacker arm instead of trying to snap it hard. Try the knife hand block with it both tight and loose as I mentioned. When doing ti loose always strike through the target. A little practice with a partner will show the value of the soft Vs. hard. The feel of the strike is totally different from the way a regular strike feels.

Point #4 is one that is much misunderstood. The reality is that chambering is taught to beginners in order to teach them correct form. Masters would never chamber a punch or kick before executing it. At that level no chambering is needed. All techniques are executed from what ever position the body happens to be in. Chambering does conceal hidden techniques. An example many people have in their kata is the stacked fist on the right hip. Many kata have a place where both fist are stacked on top of each other at the right hip just before executing a left side kick and left back fist strike. The stacked fist (we call cup and saucer. Because we hold the fist with the palms facing each other), can be explained as a wrist lock to a grab. In this example an attacker has grabbed my right wrist with his right hand. I rotate my right hand clockwise allowing me to do a wrist lock on the attacker. At the same time I'm doing that I step back with my right foot while spinning 90 degrees. by doing the step, turn, and wrist lock at the same time. I can easily settle into a horse or sumo stance. My body with now be sideways to the attacker. He is now leaning forward, and has his wrist locked. If done correctly up to this point you will most likely have added your left hand to the grip/ lock you are doing with your right hand. Now you will also see that your left elbow is right over the attacker arm, making it easy to also add an elbow lock by simply pressing your elbow down onto his.

Point #5 Touch your body, Touch your opponent

That has meaning on several levels. The most important one to me is this. In kata many times we will touch ourselves in ways that we don't recognize as being important. In many kata there will be a move where you will step forward, while doing a right spear hand thrust. Most styles have you extend you left arm. The left hand will be formed into a knife hand. In some styles the tips of the left your left hand will be touching your right arm near the elbow. Some styles will have you place your left hand under your right elbow. This touching of your own elbow is a clue that you would actually attack the attackers arm at or near the elbow. One example is this, the attacker punches with his right hand. You deflect his punch past your right hip using your left palm. while doing that you shoot your right hand forward as if doing a spear hand. However it is directed past the attackers right side and below his elbow. At the last instant, you snap your hand up. This allows you to use the bone at the base of your thumb or your right wrist to strike the soft area at the inside of the attackers elbow. There are many follow-ups from there, but I'll leave it at that. you can easily see how the your left hand touching your right elbow can be actually used as an attack to the attackers elbow. Yet you could do the kata for many years and never realize what is hidden there.

Hope these are helpful!

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EDIT: James Do you remember what issue of Black belt magazine this list was in ? I'd like to read it.

Thanks !

1) Very much agree-Not only does this relate to targets and open or closed hands, but also on what type of attack is coming in. If somebody comes in hard and strong, meet the attack with softness, say steppin out of the way and just parrying. this continues your opponents momentum for a split second, and also adds their momentum to your counter.

2) The high, low, high or high low middle is nothing more then changing levels on techniques. fi I block/parry a head strike, my return strikes should probably go middl or low and then high again. If I hit hard low, his upper body is going to want to come forward, so if my next strike goes there, I will use that momentum in my own strike.

3) Definetly true- If I am going to block rather then parry something, I am going to do as much damage to it as I can. A perfect example is a hook punch. i will either meet it and hammer it witha shuto(knife hand) or hammerfist, or better yet a block/punch combination. Hammerfists/palm heals work well on kicks also.

4) Chambering definetly has a purpose. At higher levels your stance is actually your block, so the stack/chambercan actually be a strike. the fist coming back is also used to grab and pull. As callsign said the goal should be to practice the individual motions from a nuetral position, rather then think of the kata as one big fight.

5) I have hear dthis is suppose dto increase the energy in your strike, although I have no had it proven one way or the other.

6) I would agree with this only to an extent. I would tend to agree more if your opponent has grabbed you as oppose to you grabbing them. That being said there are many grappling techniques going forward, and also with you stepping to the side to break his balance/stance.

7) Tjhere are definetly hidden distractions between techniques.

8) Breathing is at the core of Martial arts, and yes bretahing in kata is extremly importent.

9) This is one of the underlying principles of Okinawan kata. In fact many techniques are actually done while moving from stance o stance, and if you watch somebody that knows what they are doing, many techniques complete just as the body weight sets in stance. This is known as Tai Sabaki, or body shifting. not only is it used defensivly, but offensivly as well.

10) This should be the only way you train kata after you learn it well enough to not to have to think about every move, with the exceoption of actually practacing the moves with a live resisting opponent.

1) This is a concept that I agree with but it depends on the attack and your defense. Sometimes hard has to meet hard and soft has to meet soft.

2) All blocks are strikes which is totally correct

3) Same thing

4) Chambering definitely has a purpose and there are many reasons for this. Even boxers chamber their fist towards their face. Each system varies on the use of the chamber as well.

5) Hidden in each Kata are many grappling / takedown techniques and if you want to successfully throw your opponent you must be body against body for most of them. Also, teaching the bunkai to a blind student has helped me a great deal with understanding some of this concept.

6) I do not totally agree with this as some of the grappling concepts require you to move forward if they are learned correctly.

7) Agreed to a point

8) 100% agree

9) 100% agree

10) 100% agree totally

1) I think I know what they were getting at, maybe the idea of using soft tools like palm strikes against hard targets like the chin, and hard tools like the fist against soft targets like the kidneys. However, I don't think this is a hard and fast rule. An open-hand slap to the diaphram can be a good distrction (soft against soft) and you can knee and elbow someone in the face for as long as you want (hard against hard). Perhaps it was meant to be more strategic in nature.

2) Kind of agree, but in the heat of the moment I don't know how well you'd be able to cary out such a strategy. However, I can certainly see it's application in match-fights.

3) I don't know about strikes, necessarily. But I don't think the majority of "blocks" are actually defensive in nature. The Japanese term, "uke", more correctly means to recieve.

4) I've heard that if your hand is pulled back, it should have something in it. This makes sense to me, but I'm not confident enough in kata bunkai (applications) to assume this is always the case. I have seen some old karate masters perform kata where they dropped their hands between each movement, possibly signaling that each move is supposed to be a reflexive response from a natural position. I'd like to note that most of those I've seen performing kata this way were both very old, and from Okinawa.

5) I'd like to agree with this one.

6) Not sure. Certainly it doesn't make any sense to me to move backwards for striking, but there are plenty of grappling motions that require forward pressure. But undoubtedly it matters whether you move forward or backward.

7) Not sure. Although in his book "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do" Shoshin Nagamine makes special note of intermediate movements, so it might be true.

8) Absolutely.

9) Ditto.

10) Ditto again.

For society religion can provide a shared framework of perspective on reality. That doesn't apply though very much nowadays with so many multicultural environments and with such advances in communication and transportation as we have. For individuals, it can provide a way to cope with the stresses of life by believing that there is some purpose, maybe even some higher power that loves and cares about them. Some people need that and that is okay. Other people might not need the exact same religion interpreted the exact same way though, and that's okay too.

1hard to soft soft to hard.

Think of it this way: If you punch to the head with a bare fist you may break your hand. Perhaps a better way is to use a palm strike. To the abdomen use a fist. To block or redirect a kick use a palm strike, you are less likely to break your hand.

#2,#3 in traditional Taekwando all blocks are breaks. We require during testing students to break boards with each block.

#5 We teach to counter with at least three combinations once contact is made checking the opponent by keeping contact with touch, not grabbing. These are in the most Kata but often are not explained in too many schools. The applications of each move in Kata needs explanation and drills using them in self defense in varied situations.

Reference Katana's answer. I haven't seen better short explanations. Thanks Katana.

The rest I guess you already have a handel on.

I haven't read the article and I'm not sure about what the writer was talking about, but I'll try to answer what I've learned as I understand them.

1) I agree with this, and can say it isn't circular logic. This certainly applies, not only to how your attacker comes at you as some people answered above, but what kind of attack/defense you use against them. Hard (fist) against Soft (solar plexus), Soft (palm) versus Hard (jaw). This prevents you from injuring yourself.

2) Attack comes high, body goes low, counter goes high and vice versa? I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but there are many examples of that action in kata, intending to encroach under the opponent's attack and then take him off balance with your counter attack.

3) Indeed they are. In Goju the blocks are performed to inflict as much pain as possible on the incoming attack, hopefully making the attacker more reluctant to continue attacking. Wing Chun is also a good example where bocking and striking are performed in a single movement. In kata, what you think may be strikes are actually blocks (a punch to the opponent's arm to deflect his strike) and what look like obvious blocks are actually strikes (what starts as an enveloping block but really turns into a grapple or lock).

4) I agree, chambering isn't done for the sake of chambering. There are many uses. Sometimes it's striking to the rear or it's grabbing and pulling your opponent off balance and into your attack (or yanking the hair off their head). Chambering teaches you to keep you arms in tight which gives you more power when grappeling and pulling your opponent. Chambering keeps your arms out of reach from your opponent preventing them from grabbing you too.

5) I've never really given this much thought, other than feeling the opponent's movement and countering fluidly practicing chisao and aikido.

6) I agree . Strikes are more powerful with your body behind them than when backing up. Grappeling is taking your opponent into yourself, a backward motion figuratively if not literally.

7) I agree. Most people never learn what their kata really mean, and don't know that one movement may hide another or hide the preperation for another.

8) Totally agree. Without breath there is no life. You can't strike hard while you inhale, etc.

9) Absolutely. This is elementary physics. Force = Mass x Acceleration. An arm has little mass compared to the body, so putting your body into your strike increases the mass behind it and therefore the force it imparts.

10) One of the most important of all. Most people who decry kata don't understand it and think it is just going thru the motions. If they did that with everything in their lives, they would be really boring people. You have to visualize your situation and react to it as you would in real life. That is the only way to learn how to translate movements into self defence, and it doesn't matter if you're practicing kata or sparring, you have to visualize and perform every movement like you really mean it.

In the Bujinkan, we have kata... sort of. Out of our nine ryuha, we have hundreds of them. However, they're not the 36 movement kata you'll see in competitions. They are two or three movements that are done over and over to help muscle memory and breathing techniques. We also do them to get used to the way we move in our art and to get used to putting our whole body into the technique and to improve our Taijutsu (body movement). Some involve tricks and distractions, some don't. Also learning to hide our intent and our technique.

Kata are very important. Why do you think police officers practice drawing their side arm thousands of times?

Kata is good for concentration, cardio, discipline, and full body work outs. They can be over done and over taught and over corrected. I think it's translation into self defense is minimal but that doesn't mean that one should quite Kata all together. Self control is also a good pro. One has to be able to control there body in order to not go overboard or to have good accuracy in punches and kicks.

1) Is weird. Why would you use hard against soft? Wasn't soft made to deal with hard?

5 and 6, I don't understand, but the rest make sense. Especially the last three.