Agree or not? Fundamentalist doctrine contradicts itself by not allowing saved Saints in heaven to pray for us?

Agree.

Then he (the penitent thief) said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He (Jesus) replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42-43)

Before Jesus Christ died for our sins and opened the gates of heaven there were no saints in heaven. Therefore there are no Old Testament writings that would mention them.

Very few of the new Christians died before most of the New Testament was written. Therefore there is little in the Bible about asking saints to pray for us.

However the last book of the Bible does talk about the saints in heaven praying.

Revelation 5:8: Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Revelation 8:3-4: He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

The Holy Spirit guided the early Church in many things not explained in the Bible including how does the Body of Christ (believers) living on Earth relate to the Body of Christ (saints) living in heaven. We are still one Body.

Catholics share the belief in the Communion of Saints with many other Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, and Methodist Churches.

The Communion of Saints is the belief where all saints are intimately related in the Body of Christ, a family. When you die and go to heaven, you do not leave this family.

Everyone in heaven or on their way to heaven are saints, you, me, my deceased grandmother, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.

As part of this family, you may ask your family and friends living here on earth to pray for you. Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you.

Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship.

Asking others to pray for you whether your loved ones on Earth or your loved ones in heaven is always optional.

And I have not even began to discuss saints as role models who said "Yes!" to God.

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 946 and following: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3a...

Here is a 2003 statement by Evangelical and Catholic Christians together on "The Communion of Saints"

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article...

With love in Christ.

This is not the issue - Why would you pray to a saint in heaven when Jesus is right next to them? The problem with the pope is the same. The bible clearly says there is no man between God and man but Jesus Christ so why do you persist in adding to the chain of communication?

Edit: I am not saying you are asking a saint to grant the request - I am saying you are asking a saint to pray for you when you should pray directly to God yourself. If you want to be scriptual about it we are all saints so why is one in heaven any more important than you?

Adam Baum: That is a valid point but I believe the ones that do it are under the false impression that the pastor is more spiritual or has more pull with God. Asking Benny Hinn to pray for me seems ridiculous now but I concede it is common in our churches and I did it at first as well until I felt God move me to dig my own well and stop drinking from other peoples.

Edit: I admit it took me a bit of pondering to see what you are saying and you make a good point. The miscommunication is that people in my church think you are asking the saint to answer the prayer not to merely pray for you which would not be such an issue. I still think direct is best but I accept your point.

The problem lies with personal interpretations of scripture that are outside the authority of the one church that Jesus instituted, and is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was not promised to 30,000 denominational bodies but to one body and one only(the Catholic church) and this is why many of the Protestant sects are at odds with each other over scripture interpretations and various doctrines.

Contraception,Divorce and Regenerative Baptism are only a few doctrines were confusion and disagreement run havoc, and so we must conclude that if the Holy Spirit is directing these denominations then He is telling each one a different truth!

The second problem lies in the fact that Protestantism has a critical spirit, in fact it was born of a critical spirit(reformation) and can only continue in this way,and it will also continue to split and reform `ad infinitum`

The Body of Christ is composed of untold numbers of lesser mediators in Christ which pleases God and we read in scripture that the Angels bear our prayers and petitions before the throne of God, does this mean that Angels replace Christ as the one who has first place as mediator between God and man? of course it does not, Jesus is the firstborn of the spirit the first fruits and so it is right and just that Mary and the Saints share in His mediation.

Evangelicals/Fundamentalists need to be reminded that before 1930 no Protestant denomination would have agreed with Contraception or Divorce as they agreed this was against scripture,yet not so today where almost all of them have done an about face on these important issues.

The Catholic church is the only body on earth that holds to these doctrines and it has not backed down regardless of the pressures of the secular world, Protestantism however has sided with the `spirit of this world`on these issues, that same spirit that Jesus condemned and overthrew.

God bless.

You are absolutely right.Jesus Christ the Almighty God and Prince of Peace has told his disciples in the Gospel of John on the matter on after-life that God is the God of the living not Dead this means the crowd and the disciples who listened to him knew that Abraham Issiac JAcob and Moses

Furthermore it has been proven that Enoch and Prophet Elijah loved God and always did his will even if he angered the wicked Queen and her her reformed husband Jezebel.The rest went to Purgatory who were released mostly in Heaven after the death of the Almighty God and Lord Jesus Christ

In the Book of Macabees.We see Judas Macabess offering money for the souls of the dead after the war against the Jews and their authoratative ruler

Saint Paul also says that we should pray to the Nobel Kings and Queens and of good people that they might interceeed on our behald to God

Yours in Christ

I think that the fundamentalist answer is fueled by the notion that to pray to a saint for intercession is somehow worshiping that saint and is therefore akin to idol worship--or some such nonsense. I think the answer you are receiving is based largely on the ignorance of many fundamentalist to the Catholic practice of praying to a saint for intercession.

It is in 2Macc 15:7-16

the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews

Oh, that's right they don't have that book.

Ok, they surely have Lk 16:19-30

departed rich man intercedes for brothers

15 He said, 'Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31

Then Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.'"

God Bless.

Fundamentalists will say catholics need to go straight to Jesus, but will ask their pastor or their young adult group to pray for them. I can't figure that one out.

If god is the god of the living, then people who have died are still alive with god in heaven. They are just as much a part of the body as we are, so how is asking a Saint in heaven to pray for you any different then asking your pastor to pray for you here on earth?

I think both of you are being misled by where you are.

The Bible it says the dead cannot hear you: read ECCLESIASTES 9:5 = For the living know that they shall die: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING; neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The Bible say if you pray, pray direct to God:

PHILIPPIANS 4:6= Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

No one in the heaven yet till the next coming of our Lord:

proof:

JOHN 3:13 = And no man hath ascended up to heaven: but he that came down from heaven; even the Son of man which is in heaven:

Idolizing the creature is against the doctrine:

ROMANS 1:25 = Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshiped and served the crature more than the Creator; who is blessed forever Amen.

We cannot be save by just accepting Christ but we have to be the doer of the law.

Fundies are, for lack of better words, ignorant. They don;t see the obvious, they make excuses for things that contridct what they believe things unBiblical (odd because they claim to be Bible believing).

Saints is the first of many

"‘And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not God of the dead, but of the living . . .’" (Mark 12:26-27)

So...those who are saved are asleep? Um...no...not what the Bible says.

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).

Saints can;t pray...hmm...not what this passage says

The List goes on..

Sola Scriptura is AGAINST scriptura

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).

"Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (2 Tim. 1:13-14).

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)

Confession-To God only? No what Jesus said!

"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23).

Faith Only-Again...not so

For he will render every man according to his works . . ." (Rom. 2:6-8).

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (Rom. 2:13).

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:24).

Once Saved Only Saved-Nope

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27).

Real Presence in the Eucharist-They are like the followers who left Jesus said after this...it's too hard for that

"‘Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed’" (John 6:47-55).

Lets face it...fundies are so far off the path its rather sad. They don't know the Bible nor do they really know Christ.

As soon as you die you are judged by God. Yes the saints in heaven and everyone in heaven can hear you.They are with God because they were granted eternal life.