If you were in the military and were ordered to fire at American civilians?

Well, I'm not in the Military, but I will tell you psychologically that I and everyone who answered would indeed do what were ordered to in such a situation.

It's the romantic notion that our morals and ethics will always prevail that leads to such unfortunate things like PTSD.

An ideal solider or riot cop is not trained to think rationally or morally when he is given an order.

In truth, we are trained in this way from childhood. Marching in a band and pep rallies where the most enthusiastic fervor is rewarded has a much darker purpose than we would be comfortable understanding.

Surely, even follow the leader is more than a simple child's game. It is well known that toys are designed to teach us about the world around us and our place in it.

The incessant thoughts that cause us to hesitate either out of fear or moral objection vanish when one is properly trained to obey orders without question. I yell "STOP" or "FREEZE" and almost every person in the room stops whatever they are doing. Those that stopped are those that have a greater proclivity to follow orders ingrained into their subconscious. After all, a cop says both not because he expects the suspect to think "Wow, he's right, I need to cooperate with him for both of our benefits." No, he says it because in the minds of most people, it's a reaction to freeze or hesitate when such things are suddenly yelled.

So now, we come back to your original question.

"If you were in the military and were ordered to fire at American civilians, would you?"

To that, I would say "Yes".

It has nothing to do with my morality-as I would never do such a thing had I not been drilled to that point.

However, when my morality is that of the state...any order form that state trumps all.

If some bit of my original morality were present, I might only hesitate. It depends on how deeply I am drilled into my new "morality" that of the state which orders me to do so.

At the My Lai Massacre-what number of American soldiers would have committed those acts when ordered to had they not been drilled to that point?

For a lack of discipline might have made more men stand up and say, "No, this is wrong!". But sadly, few did that.

While My Lai is often pointed to as a result of poor discipline, it is in fact the very opposite.

So the true factor is this-

How much of your mind is YOURS and how much is THEIRS?

THAT will determine more than anything-if you pull that trigger.

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Many of you are missing the point.

That it violates a creed or law is irrelevant. That in your normal state of being-with your own morality as you have it now would never do such a thing-is irrelevant.

In this question, you are the solider/riot cop. You are trained to obey orders without question-not to sit back and logically and morally consider your options.

according to the soldier creed i would side with the civilians: I am an American Soldier. I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States, and live the Army Values. I will always place the mission first. I will never accept defeat. I will never quit. I will never leave a fallen comrade. I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself. I am an expert and I am a professional. I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat. I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life. I am an American Soldier. but this whole idea is circumstantial because you don't give a full cenerio. if it was 100,000 civilians that were members of a cult that belived in anarchy i'd blow their head off. but if it was members of lets say some new civil rights movement in peacfull protest by standing outside the white house until a change is made then they can feel free to stand there. any hostility towards me or a fellow soldier and i will defend myself against the agressors. but due to the massive amount of money the goverment spends on anti leathal deterants like tear gas bean-bag guns and stun-guns this scenereo would probably never take place and local police and fbi would be involved before military forces got involved

I've been placed in a situation where the small unit I was with was threatened by protesters, As the crowd became more unruly I did call to be reinforced but knew help wouldn't arrive on time. The crowd did begin to toss rocks and I had my men fix bayonets and prepare to assault. The aggressive stance was enough to back the crowd up until more men arrived. Don't know what we would have done had it not worked but I was obligated to protect my men and believe I would have done so. If we were fired upon, we may very well have returned fire.

If I was in charge of a unit at the capital and 100,000 showed up, I would follow my orders. If need be to protect myself and my men, I would give the order and open fire.

I would look over my shoulder and ask the lawyer, that would be following me around, if the order is a lawful order and could I get sued or punished for carrying it out. During our course of discussing my legal dilemma I was struck by some sort of projectile that drew blood, and the lawyer said I did not have the right to defend myself against a mob of civilians, I would fire my lawyer for not having the best interest of his client (me) in his answer. I would then grab my lawyer by the neck and put him between me and the mob. Then I would stick my tongue out at the mob and threaten them with being water boarded. Then I would file a class action suit against the angry mob and sue them for all their money. Does this help.

here is where you mix things up. While we have a constitutional right to protest it has to be done orderly and without violence. It is called passive protesting. Anything other than that is no longer a protest it is a upright civil disobedience which goes against the laws of the country and goes against rights allowed under the constitution.

So your comment is basically would I retaliate when i am being put in harm way and facing a violent mob that is obeying the law?

You bet I would. for two reasons.

#1 because of the explanation I just gave you above.

#2 because as a military i am bound by a code of honor and obedience that says that I must obey an order from my commander officer.

If we do not follow rules, laws and order we create chaos and with chaos nothing can exist or function properly.

If they were even deployed in the US it is an act of Posse Comitatus and is UnConstitutional. If they were ordered to fire on American citizens that would be an illegal order. Unless, of course, martial law was declared by the phucking government and then it would probably come to moral choices, which they are actively breeding out of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You would probably have to get a couple of Generals on board for any kind of insurrection. That's where the revolution will have to come from.

While I was in the Navy I was stationed with a guy that applied for a special forces program. He was asked point blank if he would fire upon American citizens. These programs are real and there are people in the military that would have absolutely NO problem firing on their own people. He wasn't accepted into the program since he said no.

I am going into the military after college. First off, rocks can be lethal. I would not fire, at least if it was for something that I firmly believed. However, if it's an order, than I would almost have to.I am leaning towards joining them though.. I'll worry about it when/if it actually happens. I

If I was in the military...

I'm not in the military, and I have not been subject to the indoctrination that all soldiers receive when they join. I can't imagine what that's like. I doubt if anybody can who has not experienced it. If you want a useful answer, then you should only look at the replies you get from real soldiers. Anybody else who answers you is just playing word games.

first question;

that would be a violation of the UCMJ and an illegal order the second in command would relive the officer who gave that order.

and that action is against the oath of enlistment.

2nd part they would be arrested by the national guard.

the active military can not interfere with law enforcement