Is Judaism a birth right?

Ok- lets first understand WHO is a Jew (note- I am only giving the Orthodox version, Reform has slightly different criteria)

1) A persons batural mother is Jewish. If you are adopted, unless your natural mother was jewish you would have to convert, regardless of the religion or observance level of your adoptive parents, to be called Jewish.

2) You convert via a recognised Beis Din (Rabbinical Court)

Now there is a belief in Judaism that once Jewish you are always Jewish BUT that statement is explained as follows: A Jew who does not believe in G-d (i.e. an atheist) stays Jewish as they have not adopted a foreign religion. A Jew who adopts another religion (any other religion) is considered an apostate, outside of the community and completely cut-off from Judaism. All that it means in regards to him never losiong his Jewishness, is that they will be judged as a Jew in the world to come and punished severely for their apostasy!

If they decide to repent and return to Judaism, their are differences in opinion. Most communities follow the lenient approach and do not rquire a full conversion, but they do require them to renounce all vestiges of their prior faith and to live as observant Jews. Their is a strict approach adopted by some communities- and the approach advocated by the Rema in the Shulkhan aruch, that a convert to a nother religion has committed such a heinous act of treason against G-d, that they cannot repent fully in this world. Along these lines, the requirement is that the person has to undergo the entire conversion process, renounce their faith in the other religion in front of a Beis Din of three judges and immerse in mikveh. They are expected to live as observant Jews for the rest of their lives- and only when they die, and they have not reverted to the other religion or renounced their return to Judaism (or dropped Jewish beliefs to become atheists) would their repentance be considered to be complete.

the reason most communities nowadays follow the more lenient ruling (it would appear that historically the more strict ruling was applied- along with the treating the convert to another religion as being dead while they were still alive) is due to a ruling by haRav Moshe Feinstein zs"l on a related issue: It used yo be the practice that when a person converted out of Judaism, the family would sit shivah- the most intense period of mourning when a person dies, for that individual. The person was effectively dead to them and the community. However, R' Moshe ruled that this practice should be stopped- as in the modern era the vast majority of converts were uneducated and did not have the capacity to understand their decision properly. effectively, he ruled that we consider them as 'tinok she lo bnishmah" "a baby without understanding". as such, he hoped that if the door was left opened and they were not totally cut off to the community, their would be more hope of them repenting and returning to Judaism. The same thinking applies in us using the lenient ruling on the matter of needing to convert or not. If the door is left open, and the way is easy, more people will use it. If it is too difficult, some that might have returned will be chased away!

So- when "messianic jews" claim that you cannot take the Jewishness away from somebody born Jewish- they don't actually realise what they are saying (hardly a surprise that one considering they are not Jewish). They somehow see it as a license for the person to call themselves Jewish and claim a relationship to Judaism; in the meantime it is actually to their detriment- it just means they will be judged according to the far stricter Jewish laws and punished with kares (spiritual excission) when they die for renouncing Judaism!

The confusion comes in because some 19th century folks decided to invent a pseudo-scientific reason to 'justify' their prejudices. Genetic inferiority was, in those days, a better reason than religion, especially since it included even those who had converted to Christianity. That genetic, blood-line definition is what most people think of when they go on about being a 'born Jew', 'half-Jewish' and all that.

A much better model is citizenship. Most nations grant citizenship to the offspring of their own citizens. It can be renounced, of course, and different countries have different rules on how that affects the kids. Someone who practices another religion or worships another god or god-concept (such as an incarnated god or god-messiah) or a man (messiah) has renounced their Jewish 'citizenship'.

They have removed themselves, through their actions and their choices, from the Jewish community and no longer have the right to be counted in a minyan as part of the community, buried in a Jewish cemetary, etc.

Birth rights can be given up. Anyone who claims that they can't hasn't read Torah very carefully.

Judaism descends via matrilineal descent, but this applies to converts to Judaism as well, so it isn't a "birth right" in any ethnic or eugenic way. If a Jew converts to another religion, they are no longer a Jew, regardless of whether they were considered a Jew by birth or conversion beforehand.

As for leaving and coming back, from what I understand one would have to seek out a rabbi, and undergo a conversion process similar to that of someone who never was a Jew in the first place. Depending on the rabbi's disposition, and which branch of Judaism he belonged to, the (re)conversion process could be an expedited one or not.

Starred for my Jewish Contacts.

Judaism is a *heritage*. If your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish. Jews are a family, so anyone can be *adopted* by converting TO Judaism.

Now, anyone in the above two groups *remains* Jewish UNLESS they join ANOTHER FAITH.

Messianics: most were never Jews to start with. The few that were, have now embraced Christianity. That's fine - that is their right.

What they cannot do, is then claim they are practising 'messianic judaism'. They're not practising ANY form of Judaism.

If a Jew becomes a Hindu, are they practising a new thing called 'hindu judaism'?

No, of course not.

When a Christian becomes a Muslim, do they become a 'christian for allah'?

No, of course not.

Same when a Jew becomes a Christian. They are then an EX JEW.

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Even if we say that yes, to be Jewish is a birthright, what does that have to do with Messianics? They're not Jews to start with, so no, of course they don't have the birthright. Just like, I wasn't born in America, so I'm not an American!

A Jew who becomes a Messianic(Christian) GIVES UP their birthright.

STEVEN is slightly incorrect. A person who was born Jewish, and who then joins another faith, DOES give up their Jewishness.

In fact, historically, a Jew who converted out of Judaism, and who then wanted to return, had to *convert back* TO Judaism. Here you go, from www.whatjewsbelieve.org/:

I Kings 18:21. Elijah the prophet asked Jews who were beginning to slip into the worship of the idol, Baal, "How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the God of the Jews is God, follow Him! but if Baal is God, then follow him!" Elijah told the Jews, one or the other, not both! You cannot believe in two opposite, mutually exclusive ideas simultaneously. Judaism and Christianity believe in opposite, mutually exclusive ideas, and you cannot be a Jew and a believer that Jesus was the Christ at the same time. (See question 3.)

A Rabbi in the later Middle Ages named the Hai Gaon, as quoted by Aderet in Responsa, VII #292, stated that a Jew who converted out of the faith was no longer a Jew. This was shared by numerous rabbis, which can be seen in the Responsa literature of Simon ben Zemah of Duran, Samuel de Medina, Judah Berab, Jacob Berab, Moses ben Elias Kapsali, and others in the Middle Ages.

Most recently this can also be seen in the Responsa of the Satmar Rov in his Divrei Torah, Yoreh Deah #59, paragraph 5, as well as in the Responsa of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Even Haezer Volume 4 Number 53.

The very famous rabbi, Moses ben Maimon, called Maimonides, also wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew. See Maimonides, Hilchot Mamrim Perek 3, Halacha 1-3, as well as in Maimonides's Mishnah Torah, Avodat Kochavim 2:5.

Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.

A person who was born as a Jew (by being born of a Jewish mother) has the right AND responsibility to observe Judaism. Those who were not born of Jewish mothers have the option of conversion to obtain the rights and responsibilities of Jews.

Those who have left the faith (such as by becoming messianics) have abdicated their birth right to be called a Jew and only have the right to be called an apostate.

A person is Jewish if their mother was Jewish. That's what birthright means.

If someone was born Jewish, it is impossible for them to renounce their Jewish-ness. Even if they convert to a different religion, and lose much of their Jewish status, they are still considered at a fundamental level to be Jewish. If a Jew, for some reason or another, decides that there is no God, and become atheist, and then, later in life changes his mind, all he has to do is repent. There is no need for him to convert back to being Jewish, b/c he was Jewish all along.

Converting to Xny is a little more problematic, esp b/c many such converts in history turned against their brothers and were actually among the biggest Jew haters. Nevertheless, despite being shunned by the community, and for all intents and purposes not considered Jewish, if they truly repent, then they will be re-accepted.

However, all this only applies to the first generation, to the actual person who abandons his faith. Later generations are not considered Jewish - their Jewish-ness is lost.

(I'm actually not 100% sure about all of this; You should wait for allon-yoav to post.)

Correction, the Jewish people have 613 laws, and you have only 7...these 10 you speak of are probably the 10 commandments, which were given ONLY to the Israelites.

The very first commandment God says, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery!" As you can see, Christians are not from the land of Egypt, and they were not slaves.

Most Christians believe that they have to follow the 10 laws, but actually that is false, there are 7 laws that all non-Jews have to follow, which are known as the seven universal laws of Noah, some refer to them as the Noahide Laws:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

It feels like a covenant to me--almost like a sacred insurance policy. It has always been a source of comfort since both my parents were Jewish when I was born.

From my understanding of Judaism is that it is an ethnic religion, so yes if you are Jewish by ethnicity it would be your birthright.

Unlike what Bones said there is no such thing as "Jewish blood"! I am so sick of seeing that crap on here!!!!