Salvation and good works - can you explain Ephesians 2:8-10 and does it advocate works-based salvation?

When debating the subtle, yet critically important differences between what's called Calvinism and Arminianism (not Arianism!) a main point of the Calvinistic argument is always demonstrated. That's happened here. Unfortunately. That main point is that sinful humanity's pride prevents them from accepting God's sovereignty in the matter. Pride has raised its ugly head here and this needs to be pointed out as a warning to all of us.

Sinful pride never allows sinners to totally submit to God. A vestige of pride is retained (or a big chunk, with some people), and it whispers to us that action on our part is required to finalise the 'agreement' with God regarding our salvation. That is what's going on with Arminianism. But salvation is not an agreement; it's rebels casting themselves before the Mighty King who will only save those who sue for peace - on His terms. We cannot bring anything to Him, for there is no negotiating table.

Calvin stated that our rebellion against God means we are utterly alienated from Him and we cannot do anything to save ourselves from sin. God has done everything necessary to save us. Nothing has been left open-ended or to chance. When Jesus cried out on the cross "It is finished!" it was finished. Remember that Calvin knew how rife the Catholic Church of his day was with Pelagian theology. That states that sin is a sickness - not spiritual death. It says we can find God. We are not utterly depraved - there is some good in us and we are certainly better than murderers and the likes! But Calvin showed that the perfect God has perfect standards, which nobody can meet (except Christ). However, the law of God is not designed to encourage us to strive to keep those perfect laws as best we can - it's designed to make us despair at the utter hopelessness of our sinful natures! We stand condemned by God at every turn! And rightly so! We break His laws every day!

Yet Jesus commands us to be perfect as God is perfect. This is what one answerer fretted over: "Why would the Bible insist that men repent and believe if they are incapable of doing so? Why would Jesus ask us to go and make disciples? It doesn't make sense if people are predestined." No. It's not the predestination bit that causes lack of sense. It's the Pelagian notion that we are fundamentally good people before an ethically lukewarm deity! That's why we stumble over such commands! God is not being cruel issuing such commands. He is driving us to ask grace from Him to do what has to be done - including putting faith in Christ. Only when we give up on the last vestige of the idea of God's-salvation-plus-our-own-agreement -tiny-contribution will we cast ourselves utterly on God for salvation by grace alone. That's what Ephesians 2:8-10 is all about.

Further, people who are not clear about the nature of God's salvation often go on to confuse salvation with sanctification, which is an on-going process once we have been saved. This is where we demonstrate the works that God foreordained for us to do; some more slowly than others! But that's another issue altogether. Only after we are saved can we begin to think clearly about predestination. Only then does it even begin to make any sense! So your last point: it does matter if we lean towards Arminianism because we could end up thinking we are saved when that grace has not yet been bestowed upon us. Of course, there are Calvinists who can argue all the theology eloquently, but that in itself does not mean they are saved either! Salvation is not a head-trip. It's a heart transplant - carried out by God. Only by looking constantly at Christ will we be saved and do the works God desires us to do. And all of that will bring Him all of the glory!

How bout this: Hate black people. Hate Jews. Hate Catholics. Beat your spouse. Ignore your kids. Avoid going to church. Buy your liquor in a nearby town to avoid been SEEN as a drinker. And then just SAY YOU'RE SAVED. It's so simple! Sign me up. FAITH WITHOUT GOOD WORKS IS DEAD. If what you claim to believe does not influence your life but is merely words, then I seriously doubt that you are "saved" in any way, shape or form. So much easier than the sacrifices needed to try to live the Christian life. Just say the words and you can still hate everyone else who sees things differently. Just ask Jerry Falwell. Preach against just about everything, and just pretend Gluttony just doesn't apply to you. There now, wasn't that easy? Just SAY you believe. No reason to have to avoid gluttony or hatred or intolerance when you're already save-duh. That just doesn't work. But admitting that would take openness and honesty. Good luck.

Their are two kinds of works. One is when an unsaved person does works in an effort to enter heaven. Galatians 2 is clear that "we are saved by grace through faith and not of our works". So this is on his own and doesn't work. The other kind of works is what a Christian (one who has become born again) wants to do for the Kingdom of God and for His glory. Jesus said in John 14 "the works that I do you shall do also because I go to be with My Father".

Faith without works is dead, Maybe this scripture will clear your head, if that is what you are really asking, 1 Co 6: 9-11 ) . 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God

It is not works that save, it how we apply these works to ourselves that saves.

We are commanded to preach(2 Tim 4:2;Matt 24:14;28:19), it is not the works that save us, we are doing what Mark 12:29-31, we love our neighbor, we have been set free from Satan's world, we want to help all to see the truth, so they too can be set free.

There are those that think they are saved but are still doing works that brings destruction due to false teachers playing on emotion & telling their followers, once saved, always saved. This in contrary to what 1 Co 6:11 says when it says ,what some of you WERE, so one would have to stay clean, this is the works that save.

Paul was reminding the Hebrews that preforming works, which consisted of obeying the Mosaic Law, would not save them. Just as we as sinners cannot gain salvation on our own.

Salvation would come from God alone because obeying old laws (and boasting about their adherence to laws and sacrifices) would not make them (the Jews) righteous. They were still sinners, so had to accept this gift from God, salvation based upon their faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. (Romans 5:18)

The collective "we" does not refer an individual but a group of Christ's followers, created in his behalf. Yet Paul says that they are to do good works, so faith is must be accompanied by good works. The works would be ones that God intended to have done, not that any individual was fore-ordained to preform them, but God determine would be accomplished.

This blows away the theory of predestination because by accepting God's free gift, we are agreeing to preform good works. That ties in with James words in 2:14, 17: "14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself."

We are not left in the dark as to what good work this scripture refers to. Hebrews 5:9 says, "He (Jesus) became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him." (caps for emphasis, not yelling)

So in order to accept this gift of salvation from God we must have faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then we will obey his commands. Definitely not Calvinism and I don't know enough about Arminianism to converse about it.

Let's take a close look at Ephesians 2:8-10. It supports neither Calvinism nor the belief in earning salvation by works. By the way, Arianism is a confusion about the Trinity, not about works; see link below.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

This says we are saved by grace, i.e., God's free gift of eternal life. Faith is one of the requirements, but James 2 specifically rules out faith alone.

9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

We certainly don't earn salvation by good works, any more than we earn it by faith. However, Jesus clearly taught that charitable works are required of Christians, and in Matt 25, he showed that people can be excluded from heaven for refusing to do charitable works.

10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We were created to do good works, and therefore works are not optional for Christians.

Cheers,

Bruce

Wow !! Reading all the answers in this question ,so much emotion, so much anger, Lets us Pray the Atheist not see this as it will Justify at least to them their disbelief, This is terrible,

As For an answer to this question ?

I will tell you what they Assemblies of God has to say concerning the matter of Sanctification and Holiness

The basic idea of sanctification is that of separation or setting apart. In the Bible the words sanctification and holiness are interchangeable. At the time a person receives Christ, he is sanctified (1 Corinthians 1:30; 6:11), which means he has been separated from his past life of sin and is now dedicated to God. From Scripture we find that the Holy Spirit is the One who sanctifies (2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Peter 1:2).

We believe the Bible is clear in teaching that Christians should continue living a life separated from sin and dedicated to God because, as the apostle Paul tells us, this is His will for them (2 Corinthians 7:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:3). We call this the progressive aspect of sanctification. The Scriptures speak of it in a variety of ways, such as growing in grace (2 Peter 3:14) and being gradually transformed spiritually (2 Corinthians 3:18).

The purpose of the sanctification process is that believers might become more and more like the Lord Jesus Christ. Even though Christians may not attain absolute perfection in this life, they are expected to make every effort to live a holy life, because "without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

Some churches teach that sanctification is a one-time experience that takes place after a person has become a Christian, at which time he is made perfect. The Assemblies of God teaches that sanctification takes place at the moment of salvation and then progresses as the believer continues to submit to the control of the Holy Spirit.

For it is by grace you have been saved (perfect passive participle)

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (present indicative)

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (present passive indicative)

The first answer you got from gerty is the simplest and best.

Calvanism and Arianism both have dire problems with their theology, neither are right in this regard.

God IS absolutely sovereign, and we are not saved by keeping His Law, we keep the Law out of obedience. We keep the Law BECAUSE we have been saved.

Arians do not believe in the eternal deity of Christ. Big problem there. And I do not agree that salvation requires works, but rather good works

are a sign of salvation. And salvation can clearly be lost as well, but that is different subject.

Calvinism is the most illogical position of the two. Why would the Bible insist that men repent and believe if they are incapable of doing so? Why would Jesus ask us to go and make disciples? It doesn't make sense if people are predestined.

You are on the right track. Salvation is a gift from God. There is nothing we can do to merit this. The only thing God requires to do is have faith and repent. Faith will naturally produce works.

"Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'

Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' "

John 6:28-29

this is a great question and as you probably already know we are saved by the grace of God as John 3:15 states " That whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" how ever works and grace was something that paul and james appeared to disagree on but if studied properly they both were basically saying the same thing there is no way to have salvation with out the grace of God However if you accept God's grace the works or fruits of God will show up in your life because you want to do them through the love of God in your heart. While James states that faith with out works is dead which is a true statement for if you are a true christians the works will be in your life you mentioned calvinism and i believe you meant to say Armenianism this deals with the once saved always saved issue as well as predestination the Armenians believe that you can fall out of the grace of God where Calvinism believes in the preservation of the saints. some denominations are a mixture of the two but all in all if we are truly saved the works will follow in other words you will see jesus in our lives but if we are mere professors of Christ you may not see a change in that persons life

Scripture does not support works based salvation. This has never been the teaching of the Catholic Church. Verse eight tells us that the origin and foundation of salvation is our faith which brings us into the familial relationship with God through our desire resulting from faith which is the only way to please God. Verse nine tells us that all works come from God’s grace and not from our own growth in faith. Our Body and soul become a new creation in Christ as a result of our faith and our heart is changed by His grace. St. Paul instructs that this is not a result of preceding merit as it is by God only and not by our own creation.

I have explained this more thoroughly in an answer to another on my blog here:

http://fiatvolvntastua.blogspot.com/2009/07/discus...

In Christ

Fr. Joseph

I noticed some people are saying that there is a conflict between St. James St. Paul in relation to works vs. faith. There is no conflict or contradiction between the two teachings. What St. Paul is prohibiting in his letter to the Romans is the works of the law and not works of faith prompted by God's grace. We ae certainly called to good works lest our faith be a dead faith as St. James teaches.