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12345
Lv 7
12345 asked in PetsDogs · 1 decade ago

What titles are acceptable titles for breeding?

*Titles are only a part of proving a dog breedworthy, but I am asking specifically about titles*

Assuming a dog fits all the other criteria, what titles prove a dog is breedworthy? Or maybe it would be easier to ask which titles don't? For example, do agility titles prove a dog is breedworthy? Or what level proves a dog, for example Schutzhund I? Why or why not?

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Education & Reference > Words & Wordplay

Update:

Divapom -

Just to clarify, I agree with you. I was just asking specifically about titles, not that I believe a non-titled working dog should not be bred.

I also didn't say that agility titles aren't enough, I asked opinions on whether people believe they are enough.

10 Answers

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  • 1 decade ago
    Favorite Answer

    It really depends upon what you are breeding for. Serious Agility competitors will argue with you about a dog with agility titles not being breed worthy. They could care less if a dog is pretty trotting around a ring, What they do care about, is soundness, health, mental stability and focus. I am not saying an agility title makes a dog breeding quality, but if you want an agility dog, why not get one whose lines are successful.

    To me, the results of health tests, sound temperament, sound and correct body are much more important than titles. I know many Champions who are unsound and have hidden health issues that the judges who gave them their wins never knew about. The dog could be #1 rated multiple BIS with a bad heart or bad hips or unsound temperament, It's title will not make it breedable in my eyes. Another dog, who is an obedience or agility champion or perhaps no titles, who is correct for it's breed, may never have seen the inside of a show ring, due to owner preferance or an injury that left a scar. If that dog is correct, has a stable temperament and health tests clear, would be a far better choice to me.

    BCs who work their sheep, Hunting dogs who excell at hunting but never are never shown, are more valuable to clients who work sheep or hunt than any dog with a truckload of ribbons and titles.

    I have nothing against titles, I think they can be great proving ground. But, it is not the first thing that I look for when purchasing a pup. I don't currently breed but if I did, I would want the whole package. Health, temperament, correctness, and type. What I don't want is to succumb to fads in the search for titles.

    ADD: Kaper, My tone was more towards some of the other answerers. Short answer, If everything else was in place, (Health, temperament, soundness ect) titles in the venue that I was interested in or the potential puppy buyers were interested in. If I was breeding show dogs, then show titles, If I was breeding agility dogs then agility titles, Herding dogs - herding titles, hunting dogs - hunting titles. ect. ect ect All this would show is the suitability of my dogs to the area of interest to my potential clients.

  • 1 decade ago

    I take great offense that "agility titles" were targeted singly and specifically as not counting.

    I am not not saying, at all, that simply an agility title warrants the breeding quality of a dog. But an agility title proves a lot more about the physical soundness, trainability, and biddability of a dog than a CGC, or an obedience title.....or a CH for that matter.

    As others have said, it depends on the breed.

    With Shelties, I would look for CHs in pedigree.....but performance titles too. I was "in the breed" too long not to realize there ARE many conformation champions that are mentally unsound...and that truly can't properly gait their way out of a paper bag. They might have pretty heads, a tight earset and tons of coat..but what good is that if they don't have a good temperament as a "pet" and haven't the soundness to run?

    I would never search for a Border Collie from an AKC conformation breeder. I don't want a dog that LOOKS like a Border Collie. I want a dog that ACTS like a Border Collie. If I could not find a litter from herding parents, I would look to agility titles.

    Of course, the health certs are #1.

  • 5 years ago

    I wonder why so many people act like AKC is the only reputable registry out there? If you live in Germany or France, you will not likely find an AKC registered dog! In my breed, the AKC standard is abit different from other reputable standards... AKC is not as clear on the accepted eye color, while other standards clearly state that blue eyes are a DQ... for AKC both puffs and hairless must have erect ears, while in other standards, puffs may have drop ears. There is some controversy among some AKC Crested breeders about the blue eyes. There are a few blue eyed AKC Ch's. I would say that if your dog is appropriate standard for the registry you are using, and you feel that the dog is a good specimen otherwise (proper temperment, passed all health clearances, etc).. then why would it be unnacceptable to use this dog back into the breeding program? For example a UKC white shepherd.. the dog has excellent hips and elbows, tested clear for VonWillebron's, etc.. has an excellent temperment and work drive.. is this dog completely unacceptable because its white? A white shepherd can be carefully bred back to another color to produce colored shepherds... or would someone prefer to use a colored shepherd that may not be quite as good of a specimen (say the colored shepherd's hips were rated at good or fair instead of excellent, and the dog is has a minor fault thats abit hard to breed away or doesnt have as strong of a work drive)

  • 1 decade ago

    For me, ideally, I want to see a conformation championship and I want to see a working title along with all health clearances.

    I do think agility, obedience, rally, etc titles DO matter, but alone they are not enough for me. My preference is more in field trial, herding, weight pull, sledding wins, etc. I am also ok with a dog who works but does not have titles to show for it - for example, I would never discount a BC who actually herds on a farm compared to herding trial wins. I really like to see lines of dogs who can DO something other than run in the breed ring.

    There are cases, if I know the dog and what's behind him, where I would have no concerns whatsoever with no titles as long as the health clearances are done. Of course, this requires a lot more looking into and would be a limited case.

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  • 1 decade ago

    I don't think having any title automatically makes a dog breed worthy. However in my breed APBT I look for CH to make sure they fit the standard and then a working title (weight pull, schutzhund, french ring, dock dive etc) to make sure they have the drive and ability I want. As for the working titles it really depends on what the person wants the dog for to decide if that will fit them. Sometimes titles can be meaning less as well so you really have to watch out.

  • Kaper sadly no test I'm aware of can prove breed suitability.

    There are untitled, untrained GSD's in some guys backyard in Slovakia somewhere who's a super stud in hiding. And then there are Sch3, Nationals competitors who can't reproduce their drive OR are good for all the wrong reasons.

    I really like the Koer tests but, as is evident by the jillions of European Show Line GSDs with Kkl.1a titles...not fool proof. I would also love to say if a dog is a Nationals competitor in Sch that he's breed worthy...but there have been dogs chased off the field at Nationals in many different countries. I have nothing against showing, but looks are definitely only a small part of an overall dog and looks alone should never decide whether or not a dog should be bred...not even for toy breeds as temperament should matter more than looks any day.

    The truth is, you need to respect a breeder to buy from them. You have to respect their knowledge of their craft. You have to respect their resolve. People who don't know their craft obviously can't consistently produce good dogs. And people with weak minds and no resolves make "exceptions". I want a breeder who makes NO compromises, NO exceptions. People like this have spotless kennels, they don't breed dogs who don't FULLY fit their picture of a good dog. They DON'T make excuses for their dogs or for fouling up. They're prepared to take losses on dogs who prove themselves unsuitable instead of saying "Well a couple more breedings from him and I'll have made my money back". No, no, no....you're going to take losses. Accept it, pay for your mistake, and keep moving.

    All that said? I have dogs who're completely untitled and I have no plans to ever have them titled. I have dogs with "lesser" titles, Sch1's and ZVV1's and such. And I have/have had dogs who're IPO3, Sch3, ZVV2/3, Kkl1.a, Vyborny, V rated in show and work whatever...but all of them had one thing in common. Titled or not, "proven" or not, they fit MY standards. People who buy my pups from untitled females either trust my judgment or they don't...either way I could care less. As a breeder you HOPE your customers are happy...but your main focus should be your own breeding goals that you should've written before you started breeding.

    Personally I breed hard, dominant dogs with a lot of prey and hunt drive. I also tend to prefer dogs with extremely dark pigment, big ears, and natural deep noses. Dogs who're medium-large while staying within standard and have a solid temperament. To me (and the FCI), these dogs look good and it just so happens that these dog's traits make them excellent candidates for real protection and police work. It also makes them pretty terrible to the masses of ignorant people who just want a "pet". I cater to my standards, not to any 1 market's. The fact that somebody finds my dogs useful for their applications and has enough trust in me and what I do here to invest their hard earned money into my program is flattering.

  • 1 decade ago

    Depends on the breed. Not every breed, breed club or hell every breeder has the SAME criteria. I've seen breeders with nothing put dog sport/performance titles on their dogs because that is what they breed for.

    honestly I believe in the happy medium. The dog should be able to do its "job" AND look like the breed should.

    There are breeders who strictly show, those who do only field and work events, those who do dog sports and those who do both of the first.

  • 1 decade ago

    Well agility is out, and not simply because mixed breeds can compete, but it's not an event that proves a dog can do the job it was bred for. I assume the titles will vary depending on the breed, whether they're herding, retreiving, or such. Useless breeds (like mine) have no choice but conformation titles

  • 1 decade ago

    Agility titles don't prove a dog is breeding worthy. Mutts can have agility titles.

    A dog would need to prove itself at its work if it's a working dog, and have a CH. in conformation if it's a conformation dog.

  • ?
    Lv 7
    1 decade ago

    Conformation isn't as important to me as the current conformation standards on many breeds are totally warped and not much like what the original breed standard used to be. Case in point: German Shepherd Dog and Akita.

    However, a dog that is titled in Conformation will then undergo various physical health checks to ensure they are passing on good genes and no known defects, so conformation championships DO play a role. With dogs bred specifically for companionship or for a sport/activity that is now illegal (like fighting) conformation is often the only real test for such dogs. For illegal working activities, obedience or agility titles in addition to conformation may also help elevate a dog to "breedable".

    With dogs bred strictly for working, there are hunting, field, and herding trials available, and titles for each. Many dogs bred for working may not meet the level of conformation required to win titles in the show ring. Working dogs are bred with conformation in mind, however, working drive is more important and so they often aren't as competitive in appearance. For these dogs, the show ring is usually not an option, nor does the show ring prove working drive. Field, herding, or hunting/retrieving trials prove a dog's breed-appropriate working drive.

    Schutzhund was designed specifically for the GSD, however, many dogs from many breeds have excelled in it. I'd say when looking for a quality guard/protection potential dog from Schutzhund trials the dog or its parents should excel in all three aspects of the sport and do so enthusiastically and happily.

    Conformation titles don't mean squat if you're looking for a working dog. If you're looking for a pet, the last place you want to look is at working trials for a high-energy dog bred with a higher energy level than show/pet quality dogs. Instead, you'd be looking for conformation titles.

    It depends on what you want a dog for. If I was looking for a herding dog, I'd be looking for breeders at herding trials with dogs that perform well. If I were looking for a protection dog, I'd be looking for breeders who have demonstrated their dogs' work potential via Schutzhund or other similar trials. Remember that Schutzhund only determines work potential and is not a substitute for real protection training. If I were looking for a working retriever or gun dog I'd be hanging around field and hunting competitions for breeders and dogs. If I were looking for a pet I'd be hanging around conformation shows for reputable breeders of pet or show quality dogs that conform to the breed's physical and temperamental standard but may not necessarily possess the high-maintenance working and energy drives that make many working dogs difficult house pets.

    In any of these dogs, titles alone do not indicate breedability. Titles as well as great health checks for conditions to which the breed is prone, good hips and elbows, eyes, hearing, heart checked for problems, and no immediate history of anything like Von Willebrand's, severe dysplasias, blindness, deafness, or cardiocascular problems, etc. That's what I'm looking for in a dog. Health is most important to me, but the only breeders that spend the kind of money necessary on the expensive OFA, CERF, etc are going to be show breeders or serious working dog breeders.

    [Add] Rayven and Alesi said it beautifully. A dog should be able to perform its function AND look like it should. Some breeds only serve one function, companionship, and so in those cases conformation is the only option.

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