Fellow Christians, a question concerning John 6:44?

Great question. John 6:37 - all that the Father gives to me shall (will) come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in by no means cast out." Acts 13:48 - and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." John 10:11 - I am the good shepherd. the good Shepherd gives His live for the SHEEP. Mark 10:45 - the Son of Man gives HIs life as a ransom for MANY." Matthew 26:28 - "for this is My blood of the new covenant which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins. John 17:2 - that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. These are but a small sample of passages that that show that Jesus is an actual Savior rather than a potential Savior. He came to save His people from their sins throught the preaching of the gospel, the hearing of faith, the gift of repentance, and calling on the Lord to save them. Nowhere in Scripture does it say we are saved by our free will. We lost our freedom in the fall. Jesus said, "the truth shall set you free." Was Jesus mistaken? Should we have said, "wait a minute Jesus, we already are free." Only those who are in bondage, dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-3), blinded by the god of this age (II Corinthians 4) need to be set free by the power of the gospel.

Jesus said in John 6:63 - it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing." your and my free will are part of our flesh, it accomplishes nothing. Jesus did not say 50/50 or even a little something, He said nothing. Do you believe that Christians? I expect the non believer to think it stupid as they cannot understand it. In the verse you quote, no man CAN come (can speaks of ability) unless the Father draws him. Look up what is means to draw. Not draw a picture, but "drag"

You say we are saved by our "free" will or decision.

John 1:13 - who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the WILL of man, but of God."

Romans 9:16 - so then it is NOT OF HIM WHO WILLS, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." why do we say we are saved by free will when Scripture clearly says we are not?

all who come to Christ by grace through faith are the "whosoever will."

You’ve received Some Good Answers to a Good Question!

I do not like Theological Labels, and I do Not Follow John Calvin, I Simply Follow Jesus Christ (And the Apostle Paul As HE Follows Jesus Christ). But for the sake of argument you would probably call me a 4 point Calvinist (I Strongly Disagree with the “L”).

The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo which means to drag (literally or figuratively). Clearly this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

Why does God need to draw us to salvation? Simply put, if He didn’t, we would never come. Jesus explains that no man can come unless the Father draws him (John 6:65). The natural man has no ability to come to God, nor does he even have the desire to come. Because his heart is hard and his mind is darkened, the unregenerate person not only doesn’t desire God, but is actually an enemy of God (Romans 5:10). When Jesus says that no man can come without God’s drawing him, He is making a statement about the total depravity of the sinner and the universality of that condition. So darkened is the unsaved person that he doesn’t even realize it: “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). Therefore, it is only by the drawing of God through His mercy and grace that we are saved. In the conversion of the sinner, God enlightens the mind (Ephesians 1:18), He inclines the will toward Himself, and He influences the soul, without which influence, the soul remains darkened and rebellious against God. All of this is involved in the drawing process.

I have to agree with you on the total depravity thing. Paul said that we are dead in our sin.

Man is certainly corrupt from the begining. Without hearing the word, without the Holy Spirit making the first move I don't see how a depraved thing can be made aware of the Holy. I think that is one reason why Christ gave the great commision. So that the Holy Spirit inside us can be seen and influence those around us. Not to say that is the only method that God has, but just my thoughts on that particular piece.

I suppose the real question is "How does God draw us to Christ"

I am not Calvinistic in my beliefs, but would agree that man does not seek God on his own. God's Word says, "there is none that seeketh after righteousness".

However, God's Spirit draws "all" men to Christ. God is long suffering, not wanting any to perish.

God's Word further says, "whosoever". In other words, it is a decision we make. God draws all men to Christ, but we make the decision as to whether or not we will accept Him.

You are correct when you say that we need to consider the verses around a specific verse, but we also need to consider the whole counsel of God as well. We can not ignore verses in other parts of the Bible when trying to form a doctrine. This is what Martin Luther, and many others have done in formulating specific verses.

It is true that God must draw men to Christ, but it is also true that He calls "all" men. So, in my understanding, the reformed theology teaching regarding salvation is incorrect. Anyone can be saved, because God calls "all" men to repentance. Sadly, many won't because they have "rejected" the truth.

We have to come to Him on our own. Otherwise there is no free will. He will present Himself to us in our daily experiences and speaking through our conscience. Everyone has the opportunity to either accept or reject Him. He will bring about circumstances in our lives that will either draw us to Him or make us run the other way. Again there is that free will factor. It is His desire that all men come to Him and not just the so called righteous. Remember that He did not come to save the righteous but the ones that know that they have a need of Him and are humble enough to admit this need. Many will reject Him because of pride and arrogance. Remember too John 3:16 where He said that He was sent to the world to save the world. He said "whosoever" believes in Him will be saved. He didn't say the "chosen" ones will be saved. Yes, He has chosen us but only because we have chosen Him. It is like a woman whose sweetheart asks for her hand in marriage. She answers, yes. She chooses to marry him because the invitation was given and her love for him made her choose him back. If she had rejected him then he would have turned away sorrowful. We are that Bride that the Lord has chosen now it is up to us to choose Him back.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw "all" men unto me.

It is true that no one comes to Jesus except those drawn by the Father.

However, consider John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

That rules out Calvinist predestination. We are depraved and corrupt in sin, but in most cases, not totally depraved nor totally corrupt because detect the call of Christ. God designed us to be free and rational, and unless we pave over the "God-sized hole" in our hearts with impenetrable habits of mortal sin, we will seek him (see Romans 1 for details).

Cheers,

Bruce

You have nailed it, the Correct understandings of the Scriptures are simply Not available to any who's eyes have Not been opened Spiritually, However no one has all truth available to them at once there are Necessary processes that have to unfold in the lives of each individual before pieces of the Mystery are revealed, Becoming Saved is a Process Not and instantaneous event one has to endure to the End in order to Be a saved person ie to become born again/sinless.

Hello Primo. It is good to see so many of my friends in one place. I was just reading about the thinking on "free will" and found several great articles on it. As you know, I am not a believer in TULIP. I am a Christian and I believe that Christ told the Apostles and sent each one of us out to spread His' Message in Matthew 28:18-20. I do believe that we must hear and follow what we are told in the Bible to have an opportunity to be in Heaven with Him. I believe that it is possible for man to be drawn to God and I believe that it is possible for him to read, study, and obey what God told us to do in the Bible. Have a great day and a wonderful weekend.

Thank You,

Eds

~~~

Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I believe that man is capable of coming of knowing that God exist on his own. But I agree that you do need the spirit of God to come to Christ. I believe that we all have the spirit but many of us are unaware that we possess it and never work with the spirit. That same Spirit that is the love of God and Christ will lead us to Chirst if we accept it.

I don't know if that answer the question

While I am NOT a Calvinist, and I do NOT accept TULIP (yes, I have studied it when I went to Bethany College of Missions in Bloomington, MN, and they presented both sides of the "argument", and left it up to each one of us to decide for ourselves what we would believe, Calvinism or Armenianism, and I kind of fall 1/2 way between the two schools of thought, so that my Calvinist friends think I'm Armenian, while my Armenian friends think I'm Calvinist), but I do not fully accept the concept behind "TULIP", and I do not believe that we are literally BORN sinners, yet I DO believe that our sins deprave us, and as Jesus said, "Who ever commits sin is a slave to sin", and as a result, we are definitely born in a fallen condition, but not a sinful state, and therefore when an infant or baby dies, the baby goes to be in the presence of our Lord and Savior because no sin has transpired in the child's life; and yet with all that, I definitely agree with you that unless God opens our eyes, and unless the Spirit draws us to God, we can not be saved.

That is one really long sentence, and quite a mouthful (*WHEW*) - sorry about that (*GRIN*).

Continuing, I do NOT, however, believe in the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved", because of the parable of the seed and the sower, in which some seed which started growing in bad ground (rocks, weeds, etc), died out after it began growing.

And I do NOT believe we are BORN as sinners. David said "In sin did my mother conceive me", and if you look at the grammatical construct of this passage, David is saying "My mother was committing a sin when she conceived me", which fits in with the notion that David was an illegitimate child, which would explain why his brothers rejected him when the prophet came to anoint the next king to replace Saul.

Then, also, is the passage that says that sin came into the world, and death was passed on to all men. Notice, it says that it is DEATH that was passed on to all men. It doesn't say that SIN was passed on to all men.

But it is true that "all HAVE sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." Notice it says that all HAVE sinned, not all ARE sinners. We are sinners because we sin. After all, Adam sinned without a sin nature. He BECAME a sinner because he sinned. WE become sinners when WE sin, in my opinion.

And finally, in the book of Ezekiel, God expressly forbids saying that the children die for the sins of the father.

But, after all is said and done, as long as we both love the Lord and serve Him, what else really matters, eh?

And, as I said, I agree with your conclusion that we are incapable of coming to Christ on our own, except the Lord draws us.