Torah/biblical question? Intentional and unintentional sin?

Jimbob

There is only one unforgivable sin....

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

I assume you are referring to these passages in Numbers 15:29-31 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Nowhere in the Torah or the whole OT does it say that there is no forgiveness for intentional or presumptuous sin . Only that the punisment is death for these sins . Here are several "intentional sins" which could be forgiven thru animal sacrifice...

Numbers 6: 1-7 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found, Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Also the term "any sin" is used in the Torah and it is clear from this verse in Numbers 5 that atonement or forgiveness is possible .....

Numbers 5:6-8 Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men commit, to do a trespass against the LORD, and that person be guilty; Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed. But if the man have no kinsman to recompense the trespass unto, let the trespass be recompensed unto the LORD, even to the priest; beside the ram of the atonement, whereby an atonement shall be made for him

So I think it is clear then, that any sins could be forgiven , but that capital punishment had to be applied in some cases . It is the same today sin can be fogiven like murder and adultery but one must still face the music. Sin can be forgiven but still has consequenses.

So to answer your question . "How can one do away with a law that never existed?" I would say that none of the law is " done away with" but completed or fulfiled in and established by Christ Jesus. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Paul said in Romans 3:31" Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." and in Romans 7:12" Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." I have heard so many people say that we are "not under the law" and take it out of context that it makes me a bit concerned . Yes it is true we do not have to sacrifice animals .The cross did away with this . But we must obey all the moral laws . We are not under the sentance of punishment of the law because of Christ's death on the cross. But we still have to obey the commandments of God . Jesus said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jesus himself quoted 5 out of the 10 commandments to the rich young ruler in Matthew 19 as requirements to enter into the Kingdom and therefore it is abundantly clear that Jesus expects us to obey . Again Paul is also clear...Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

So to say that the law is done away with in any context other than the true meaning is a dangerous doctrine. It seems that many who say" we are not under the law, we are under grace, often fall into dis-grace by sinning intentionally while thinking that grace is a free ticket to heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth. Forgive me my long ranting answer here but I just get bothered when people say " do away with the law" or "not under the law". God loves righteousness and it is my aim to be so to the absolute best of my ability. Thank you Lord for picking me up when I stumble. God bless you.... Captain Arlo

Excellent question. A number of posters are spot on (Paperback, Julia, L'Chaim). Since the Temple was destroyed, we do not offer animal sacrifices, but offerings of grain, fruit, (harvest) etc. as well as prayer suffice.

In addition, to the poster that mentioned 'the day of forgiving' (something like that!), he or she is referring to Yom Kippur - the day of Atonement. The thing is, Yom Kippur is when we atone for our sins (intentional or otherwise) made against

G-d. Any time we have sinned against a person, we must go to that person and apologize - ask for forgiveness. Prayers do not work for sins against a person.

Of course, Jews do not believe anything other than Jesus was a nice Jewish man who taught Jewish law and scripture. He has no other meaning to us. We do not 'deny' Jesus (as some have said), he just is not important to us.

B'shalom (in peace)

Julia D has, thus far, given the only correct answer.

As you rightly note, Judaism never did use sacrifice in the way that is attributed to it. It has never been the only or even the main route to atonement - indeed, there are numerous examples in the Torah of G-d showing forgiveness to people when they genuinely repent. No sacrifice even mentioned or required.

Judaism has always forbidden 'blood sacrifice'. It is totally alien to the Jewish faith. That is ONE reason why we will never, ever regard Jesus as messiah; we don't accept the notion that any man can sacrifice himself for the sins of others. In Judaism we are EACH responsible for our OWN actions, mistakes and sins.

Interesting post :)

Excellent deduction. I predict you will soon become a member of the JPA.

In addition to what Julia D. and Paperback have said about human sacrifice, the messiah will NOT be divine. The messiah will be just as human as Jesus was. The messiah (anointed) will be the world leader when that era of peace on earth arrives! Why would the messiah have to *return* when he has completed his mission? In other words, we are awaiting that period of peace symbolized by the messiah.

"...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Peace/Shalom

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Jesus's blood doesn't cover ANY sin. There is no such thing as a human sacrifice for sin in Judaism. Nor has this ever been the role of the Messiah to be a virgin human blood sacrifice for sin for anyone.

Blood is not necessary. There were grain offerings, etc. And along with that there was always prayer. Still is prayer. In Hosea you see the Temple destroyed and the Jews asking God what to do now. God replies "The prayers of your lips will replace the bulls of sacrifice from now on."

Long before Jesus.

It is a Christian incorrect teaching that blood is necessary for atonement. Of course, if they get rid of that teaching, the human virgin sacrifice of Jesus is useless to them, so they hold onto it.

We were a people who practiced such things as animal sacrifice before we were Jews, before Abraham. With the new religion of Judaism, we were to eventually come to use prayer alone.

It is very difficult to wean a people from one system to the next suddenly. The animals sacrifices were never meant to be a permanent thing. Just a weaning type thing on our way to total responsibility for our own thoughts deeds and actions and our being able to leave those old pagan ways behind.

We are given forgiveness by doing what is called Tshuvah. This means "turning" in Hebrew. It is a process of forgiveness and making right what we wronged, as spiritually mature people are to do. We go to the person we caused harm, and not only ask forgiveness but also make right what we wronged as far as is at all possible. Monetary compensation if we cannot rebuild something destroyed, etc. Whatever we can do, we do. And then the next step in the process of Tshuvah is to never, ever do that thing again.

It is the same for asking forgiveness from God. We ask, we make right anything we harmed, and we turn from ever doing that thing again.

This is how sin is forgiven in Judaism today with no Temple for making sacrifices, and how sin was meant to be forgiven as we were weaned off the animal sacrifices even back then, according to many of our sages.

Some Jews today believe that when the Temple is rebuilt, animal sacrifices will resume once again. Some Jews do not believe this.

In any case, it has never been the role of the Messiah to act as a human sacrifice for anyone's sins. As the Jews moved AWAY from ancient paganistic societies that practiced animal sacrifice - and those that also practiced human sacrifice -- Christianity turned right around and brought it back IN for themselves.

It is incorrect, it is ancient paganism from human virgin blood sacrifice cults, and is completely ineffective for anyone to obtain forgiveness for anything.

P.S. The Law cannot be "fulfilled" anymore than stopping at a stoplight means that you've fulfilled that and no longer need to. The Law is eternal, as God said in the Torah.

Christians are under the misconception that Jews follow the Law to obtain salvation, heaven, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. Judaism doesn't even HAVE the concept of needing to be saved, we don't have the concept of Original Sin (twisted misinterpretation by the church of the adam and eve story).

We follow the law for the same reasons that any other society, any other culture, any other people follow their laws. For a fair, just, compassionate society in which the poor are taken care of, people get speedy court hearings and trials, mankind can live with mankind in peace, and God and man can live at peace as well.

There is no such thing as "law replaced by grace". Grace has always been the condition that we are all under. Nor do we have the concept of eternal burning in hell. We have reincarnation, always have.

Christianity teaches a LOT of incorrect information about Judaism and Jews and why Jews do what they do, and did back then. Pretty much anything the new testament teaches about that, take with a HUGE grain of salt. And then go and learn what Judaism actually believes. It is nothing at all like Christianity.

Dear Friend,

God sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ to be the "perfect" sinless Lamb to be sacrificed for ALL sin. Past, present and future.

Of course that doesn't mean we have a license to sin once we ask Jesus to be our Savior. It means that the Holy Spirit is given to us to "convict" us of any sin to repent of it and go in God's direction.

And because of Jesus being the perfect sacrificial Lamb of God, there never has to be any other type of sacrifice. On the Cross, Jesus said, "It is finished." It is complete! He became the perfect sacrifice and paid a debt none of us are capable of paying. There is nothing about us that bridge the gap of fellowship back to God. We are not good enough, nor can do enough to satisfy a HOLY GOD! Only Jesus' blood satisfied God.

When a Christian says that they are no longer "under" the law, it doesn't mean that we don't obey the law. We are convicted by the Holy Spirit who teaches us spiritual right from wrong. Discernment. Therefore, we obey the "spirit" of the Living God. Does that make sense?

What good is following the law if someones heart is not pure with righteous intentions? Jesus was furious with the Pharisees and Sadducee's. He called them hypocrites. They acted religious on the "outside", but their hearts were corrupt.

You're correct that there is no sacrifice in the law for intentional/willful sin except, perhaps, for the day of atonement. But you are wrong to think that Christ did away with the law. He himself said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. That being said, the sacrifice of Jesus did atone for willful sin. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

peace

"The remedy for committing an intentional sin was never sacrifice"

As reiterated in the New Testament:

Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

See Matthew chapter 5; Jesus did not "do away with" the Law of Moses, he told his followers to keep the law and follow it down to the last iota, the last jot and tittle. The idea that the Law is abolished for Xtians comes from Paul, not Jesus. See

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/JesusEthics.htm

You should read it again.