At what point in self-defense would you use severe tactics?

a palm strike to the eye socket with a slight twist works well too. and isnt a permanent injury, if you do it right both eye water up

to me eye gouging is taking the eye ball out, i have never been in a situation i need to do this.

techniques like this should be reserved for life or death situations.

a drunk people on drugs requires different tactics. i have seen people with broken legs not stop from the drugs they are on.

a quick choke can take them out a drunk. the body still need blood and oxygen to the brain to be awake. and gouging an eye out may not work on some one all drugged up.

pain is only good if they can feel it.

edit:>

legal parameters: thats what a good attorney is for;

if there tiring to kill me i intend to be the last one standing.

The law says you must use the minimum amount of force necessary to stop an attack. That's what I abide by.

In most cases, relatively non-lethal techniques like generic strikes, throws, joint locks, pins, and chokes are all you need. I say "relatively non-lethal" because people have been killed with these techniques, usually unintentionally.

Clawing/pinching the skin, to me, is just a way to add some pain to a regular grip. I have no problem with this. I also have no problem gripping the throat or popping someone in it. The lethality of a strike there is debatable. We're still mostly water and the throat has a bit of give. I've even been kicked there. Made me cough, didn't kill me.

Biting and gouging are things I'd probably only bring into play after the other guy did. Someone sticks their fingers in my face, I'm biting them; someone bites me, I stick my thumb in their eye to remind them that we don't do that.

Anyway, what the law tells me I can get by with is enough to end the fight on my terms. In the above case, if a drunk pushed me into a wall and then kept on walking away, I wouldn't do anything. He's not a threat. If he pushed me into the wall and verbally threatened me, then I'd deal with it using the minimum amount of force necessary. I've had to handle drunks before; they're generally not much of a threat because their coordination and judgment are impaired. And usually the people around you (once you're an adult anyway) are responsible enough to try to talk the drunks out of fighting, too.

If it comes down to physical violence it means that I have already failed to diffuse the situation or I was attacked with out warning. I would ignore a simple push, I got out of high school several years ago and my ego is strong enough withstand a few bruises. Now if he pushed me into that wall and followed me in, that is quite another matter altogether. I won't use lethal techniques unless forced to do so but I have no problem breaking things, like fingers, elbows, legs, knees etc. I don't want to but if it is physical then I have already tried other ways and the attacker gets what he gets. As far as biting, eye gouging, etc , those are emergency moves, if it has come down to that I messed up already and let him get an advantage.

One thing that I always liked about the Kajukenbo philosophy was once it gets physical you don't stop until they stop resisting, ie unconscious, incapacitated, surrenders, or what ever the case may be. That is the philosophy that I live by to a point. Every situation is different and to sit here and say that this is how I would respond every time is ludicrous. I firmly believe that you should do what you have to to eliminate the situation or remove yourself from it and no more, but in all honesty I favor eliminating it. I don't run very well for that far so, it is in my best interest that they can't or are unwilling to chase me. I will do everything in my power to prevent it from becoming physical, but once it has I operate under the assumption that they are trying to do bodily harm and / or permanent damage to me. If there are more than one, then my tactics will be adjusted accordingly. When facing multiple opponents you must make every move count. In that case I will try to knock out or break something with every strike, until I make a hole big enough to get through and RUN!

There are no rules in a self defense situation, there are consequences. I will live with the consequences to make sure that I live, period.

My teacher always said. "If someone robs you and they want your money, you give them the money. If they want your watch, you give them the watch. If they take you into a room to lock you up while they ransack the house you go. They just want you out of the way. When they start playing games with you like make you kneel down, hold a gun to your head and tease they mean to harm you and have no qualms doing so. Now you go to war."

In short all material things can be replaced. Your health (injury) and your life can not. I will choose my health and my life over the health and life of a criminal any time. I also understand that if I do engage in a fight I also take the chance of getting hurt regardless if I end up winning. If a drunk just pushed me into a wall I would let him get away with it. It probably wouldn't cause any permanent injury. If he held me against the wall I would do enough to get out of it. If you don't know how to get out of this without punching him in the trachea you know nothing about martial art. Legal parameters would not not hamper my ability to defend myself because when I do punch someone in the trachea I will have very good reason to do so.

The life threatening situation is kind of like pornography. Hard to describe but you know it when you see it to paraphrase a great jurist. Certainly I would only use the harshest tactics when I felt my life or the lives of someone was in danger. That is why it is called self defense and not assault with intent to do harm.

I have only once had a situation where I felt eminent danger and I responded with all I had to defend myself. Fortunately the outcome was that the assailant could walk away. I went my separate way as well. Most encounters can be handled by walking away or talking down a situation. A very drunk person can most times be controlled if you are skilled enough and are in a public place where you can get a little help it is often not necessary to heart anyone severely.

When I think of terms like self defense, my mind immediately goes to a life or death situation where there is no other option but to fight for your life. I don't think of bar room brawls or some retarded frat boy challenge. As martial artists we need to know how to take the higher road to prevent any fight from ever happening in the first place. Only when a fight is unavoidable and life/lives are being threatened is it okay to ever fight.

If such a life threatening situation were to occur, I'm going to do whatever I can that my training has allowed me to do within the situation and whatever it calls for that will end the fight as soon as possible. I would rather the person live with the least amount of harm. I'm not going to be judge, jury and executioner, but I will do whatever I deem necessary.

Depends entirely upon the situation BUT a single blow from an assailant can kill you. Whether the force of the blow kills you or the ensuing fall, it doesn't matter.

Last year a guy jumped out of a taxi, punched someone walking down the street and killed him. That happened right outside by house. Since then, I've tended to think that it's not worth even allowing that first punch to land. If it looks like it will escalate into violence then I'm prepared to drop the other guy before he does me. And use whatever is available to do that job regardless of the damage I cause. Yes, I might get into trouble with the law - but I'd still be alive and have one's faculties intact. It's worth taking that risk, imo.

I have never instigated a violent confrontation - and can't imagine that happening - so, generally, the other guy is the one at fault if it heads towards violence. If he's not prepared to walk away, then I'm certainly not about to let him walk away leaving me a bloody pulp on the floor.

If my life was in danger I'd take them out. If the life of my children or loved ones were in danger, I would take them out.

Always react with force proportionate to the threat. It sounds really complicated, but basically the law will allow you to defend yourself should the need arise. For instance, if a drunk is simply pushing you, then you react with a redirection, lock, sweep or come along. If a drunk is about to punch you in the face, then you're automatically more forceful, reacting with a punch, kick, slap, lock, sweep etc. If someone is trying to rape you, then the gouges etc. come into play.

Always remember the wise man's words. "If its worth fighting for, its worth fighting dirty for."

I'm with Kokoro on this one. If my life is in danger, I will not hesitate to do what ever I have to do to survive. I was attacked in 1973 by a knife wielding attacker. I could not get away. I messed the guy up bad. But I did not kill him. I would have been justified, and there were several witnesses present. I got out OK, but got a nasty cut on my right forearm. Even though I was brutal, I did not use eye gouges or strikes to the throat, ...etc.

As kokoro said a drunk or someone high on drugs is another situation completely. Those people don;t feel pain. you can break their arm, and they will still keep coming. Pain compliance techniques may not work. The only thing that works well is to keep them off-balance with some type of grappling, or joint lock. But those skills against a person in that state require a very high level of skill to accomplish.

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I think that to a point the common logic of legal self defense has some wisdom to it.

you can respond to a threat with an equal or lesser reaction

I would never result to any damaging action unless I felt that I or others I tried to defend were in risk of serious harm. And even then a skilled martial artist can usually deter some one without resulting to physical force whatsoever.

BUT then again there is no telling how you might react when sh!t really hits the fan. Adrenalin kicks in and often leads to responses that you didn't expect from yourself under serious stress. one can talk as much as he/she wants but you can't predict your reaction under that kind of stress.