To all Wiccans - how do you veiw the religeon and the inclusion of Witchcraft as part of the practice?

I have been practicing eclectic wicca for more than 25 years now and I began hearing large numbers of wiccans deny that the practice of witchcraft was involved in their religious practices only relatively recently. I believe part of this new trend is one of the side effects of wicca going "main-stream" and is an attempt to divorce the worship of non-christian gods from practices that are often regarded as suspicious superstitious mumbo-jumbo by the uneducated populace. While these "nouveau" wiccans are sincere in their worship, their recantation of all magical practices implies a different and more limited understanding of what magic is and what it does than previous generations have understood it to be and do. That is their prerogative however and though IMHO this substantially reduces the beauty of our magical ritual to something bordering on pantomime and jest, if it substantially fulfills their spiritual needs I don't believe I have the moral right or duty to nay say their choices or their understanding.

When Gardner first started BTW, it was under the belief that there was an ancient surviving Witch cult. Since the 70s, we've known there is not. Murray's theories were debunked.

Gardner wasn't the only person who was establishing groups or practicing "Wicca" or "Witchcraft" at the time; he just got the most attention for it and his model is what took off. The movement was growing out of ceremonial magic (granted, a large part of it was based on Victorian fabrications about Paganism & Witchcraft, but still). We know no one group ever owned Witchcraft and there are many definitions of Witch, most of which have very little to do with religion at all, least of all Wicca.

Gardner set wheels in motion... but like most religions that have meaning, it evolves and grows. What Gardner intended is irrelevant. He was one of the springboards; he was a pioneer who started something bigger than himself.

Wicca was not even a term BTWs really used-- the term Wicca was more readily adopted by American eclectics as the movement spread over here. To me, that means Wicca is to BTW as Protestantism is Catholicsm. The Popes can't tell Southern Baptists what to believe & do. Same thing here.

Definitions of magic and what constitutes Witchcraft vary. Most people who claim not to practice Witchcraft simply mean they do not cast spells and such. That doesn't mean there is no spiritual magic in their rituals.

As a nonwiccan Witch I use the Craft in a purely secular context. This gives me a different take on this controversial subject, I'm "outside looking in" so to speak.

I think that most Wiccans that do not practice Witchcraft are "passive participants". There is nothing wrong with this position, it is just another facet of the religion. When taking part in the celebrations, rites and rituals of their coven they are part of the Majick and they benefit from it, as it is intended. Everyone should benefit from every working of the whole group. They give their own energy just by being there and adding their positive experience and feelings.

In other words, it's all good.

Sue, I am in agreement, but I think that many of the people who separate the practices and feel that Witchcraft can be excluded from Wicca have a VERY different idea from most initiates as to what constitutes "Wicca" and what constitutes "Witchcraft".

In my practice, I have always (even prior to initiation) built the temple, consecrated the altar, established a cone of power, etc. in my "wiccan" rituals. I consider these to be acts of Witchcraft, and without them I would be hard pressed to recognize a ritual as "wiccan"...eclectic or otherwise.

My tradition differs from BTW in a few practical respects, and many BTWs do not even consider the tradition I practice "Wicca". (This is fine with me. I use the term because a) it was used in my initiations and b) my BTW upline considers me "Wicca".)

I personally don't understand how it is possible to practice Wicca *properly* without practicing Witchcraft, but I also believe that those who find a Wicca-like religion fulfilling are entitled to their version of things.

ETA: What a wonderful question! Thank you!

ETA: The idea that Wicca can be "passive participants" is interesting. The Wicca are supposed to be the priesthood, which indicates to me ACTIVE participation. One does not call the congregation of kneelers and standers at a Catholic Mass "Priest" do they? That honor is reserved for the ones who are properly prepared to transubstantiate the Body of Christ....another act that could be construed as "magic".

I am, for all practical purposes, a "Philosophical" or non-magic-practicing Wiccan, at this stage in my life.

I've cast spells, and practiced magic, and I don't have anything against it, but I don't see it as integral to my faith. My faith has to do with the relationship I have with my Gods and my place in Nature.

I prefer to accomplish many things with hard work and perserverence, rather than magic. If I formally cast any spells these days, they are spells on myself for clarity or health or calm, etc.

Now...having said that, I'll note that some small forms of magic are common in my house and my life, even today. Totems for luck, certain tea recipes, the way I stir a pot, even they way I and my family clean house are, I suppose, witchcraft in the minor sense.

I don't disgaree with you regarding Gardner, but neither do I feel any need to slavishly follow what he or any other specific writer on Wicca have said. Wicca is an experiential religion, and as such is adaptable and individual. Much of what Gardner wrote about does not fit my ideas about my Gods or my place in the world, nor does it fit the practices of our family coven. In many ways, I lean more towards Cunningham's ideas about Wicca, and even then, I would say I think he relied to heavily on the Craft for my tastes.

Ultimately, I suppose it depends a great deal on how you define magic, and what actions you feel constitute magic. Is closing the circle magic? If so, then I suppose I use magick weekly, even daily. Is mixing your herbs to make the perfect cup of tea magic? Then I'm guilty again. I tend to see magic or witchcraft as the more formal, more deliberate acts of casting a more complex spell.

Who knows? I am concentrating, these days, on understanding my Gods and how I fit into the world. There may come a time again, in the coming years, where I shift my focus again to magic and re-incorporate witchcraft into my everyday practice of my faith.

Good question, by the way!

Witchcraft does NOT equal magic. There's lots of different magic out there. Saying that Wiccans don't have to be witches doesn't say anything about magic in general.

I see no reason why drawing down energy, communing with the gods, creating ritual space, etc. should be labeled "witchcraft." None at all. It is a blatant redefinition of the term, a redefinition that came about sorely because of painfully wrong scholarship such as that put forth by Margaret Murray. I see no reason to perpetuate historical nonsense, particularly when it commonly leads to confusion in communication with non-Wiccans, almost none of which would use your definition of witchcraft.

I find it problematic enough that a word that once meant "malevolent magic" now means spellcraft in general, but at least we're still talking about practical, generally non-ceremonial, magic. I am a Wiccan, but not a witch, because while I cast circles as well as the next Wiccan, I do not work spells, nor do I see spells as having any sort of place in the religion of Wicca.

Now, if you want to include that within a Wiccan context, that's your prerogative. But people cook things for rituals and celebrations all the time, but no one says baking is a part of Wicca.

Its ironic that electics are often accused of taking a bunch of ideas and just smashing them together under the banner of "Wicca," yet some traditionals still want to smash "Wicca" and "witchcraft" together and just file all of it under one word.

Thank you Sue for a question with some good meat on it's bones. I am very much enjoying reading your answers.

I am an eclectic pagan and so can also only speak from an outsiders point of view having only attended open Wiccan rites, I am sure there is allot in closed ones and esbats that could involve higher magic.

The rites I have seen to date, the drawing downs, the sympathetic energy being raised etc that magic came from the HP/HPS. It seems to me, that as a participant and provider of energy I was more of a conduit or tool than an actual caster of my own magic during the rite. I think perhaps a Wiccan who is not directing the flow of the energy could perhaps be considered a non-magic user.

I think the context can be equated to "you can be a Christian and not be a carpenter". Christianity is the religion, and carpentry is the practice. In carpentry, you can work your craft and not involve anything religious in it (unless you intend to focus your craft ON religious elements (i.e. churches, other religious buildings, etc). You can incorporate both into your spiritual life, or leave them separate.

I think that's what's meant by one can be Wiccan and not practice Witchcraft. I'm an advocate for Witchcraft being a separate practice, because if deities were integral to the practice, Witchcraft would be labelled in a religious context (Witch-igion).

But that's just my two cents

ETA: Sorry I have a beef with an answerer. I'm sorry but as a...what was it...Oh yes, "Operational Witch"...I have NEVER been stupid enough to bleed out from a cut from simply chanting over an injury, rather than seeking proper first aid. "Modern Witches" (more appropriate term) are not so stupid to rely on "the powers of the universe to fix all our boo-boo's" and not rely on mundane tasks and supplies (perhaps ignorant novice Wiccans (yes Wiccans) may fall in that category, not non-Wiccan or religious Witches who have far more experience, and knowledge obtained through proper study (and I don't mean the latest Silver Ravenwolf or other cheap fad book)). We may perhaps use chants, or other means in conjunction WITH band-aids, healing herbs/oils, or other supplies either made or obtained from a pharmacy. I don't appreciate my craft belittled and compared to some fairy tale crap. To assume those who perhaps do not wish to pursue Witchcraft in such a "ceremonial" way and perform long, drawn out, tedious rituals to get their points across, as idiotic as some here would imply (perhaps not directly, but the implication is still there), makes as much sense as saying that Wicca is only about worshipping Nature and trees. (BTW: sorry, I couldn't take the rest of what she had to say seriously after this misinformed nonsense).

I think that what most mean by the "you can be wiccan but not practice witchcraft" is that you don't need to be a spellcrafter or using it in their everyday lives. I see the craft as a tool. While I use the craft in my everyday life... I limit the spell casting part of it. Sure we use it in the area of worship and ritual. But some do not use it as an answer to dealing with everyday events or situations.

I hope I am not being confusing.

I'm studying Wicca and paganism in general. I'm not clear on much of it but I find it fascinating. Good question, can't wait to read the (serious) answers