Because we have not seen,means we do not believe? How about, because we experience, we believe?

I agree with everything you said...and the atheist response is perfectly predictable. Evidence, evidence, evidence...be it the evidence of our eyes or the evidence of our experiences, it is still about evidence.

The human body analogy makes sense...to you...and even to me...but to someone that believes all decisions should be made based on evidence, it makes very little sense. As one answer said, we have evidence that our internal organs exist...people have cut into the human body and seen them...scientists have studied them closely and shared their knowledge with others.

This is the inherrent flaw in both your initial statements. Because we have not seen means we do not believe...in other words, the lack of evidence justifies a lack of belief. Because we have experienced, we believe...in other words, the evidence of our experiences justifies our belief. However, in both cases, the prerequisite is FAITH, not evidence!

The first position depends on the faith we put in that "amazing" human body you described. Those wonderful five senses that allow us to collect evidence about the world around us...that amazing mind that allows us to compile and analyze all that evidence and draw conclusions based on our faculties of reason and logic...and even provides us with emotions/feelings to guide that process (e.g., something just doesn't "feel right").

The only real difference in the second position is the prerequisite position of faith in God. Because we choose to have faith in God, our experiences provide evidence to support that faith. We can see the relationship between our prayers and the things we experience. As we compile and analyze the evidence around us, our faith allows us to see logical/rational connections that those without faith attribute to chance/coincidence (also using their logic/reason).

Don't you see...your argument is based on evidence...on the assumption that if you can convince a non-believer that the evidence of your experiences is valid, that they will choose to believe. But the way I see it, the argument itself is invalid. Faith is NOT based on evidence, evidence is based on faith! You simply can't convince someone to have faith in God by providing them with evidence that he exists...because without that faith, they won't accept your evidence as valid.

Faith is a choice...and it is a choice you must make every day, every moment, even when the evidence doesn't support that choice. If you manage to convince someone that your evidence is valid and then they choose to believe based on that evidence, their faith will not and can not stand up in the face of evidence that seems to contradict that faith.

Personally, I think this is the reason that so many people turn away from what seems to be a sincere and strong faith in God...because the foundation of their faith was evidence instead of choice. They were convinced to believe because the evidence they were given seemed to support a decision to have faith in God...and when their experiences provided evidence that contradicted the original evidence, they chose to reject faith in favor of another explanation. To put it simply, they NEVER gave up their basic faith in their own mind and body...and it was that faith that supported their evidence-based decision to believe in God. When their faith in God then encountered evidence that didn't make sense to them, they continued to put their true faith in themselves and rejected God based on the new evidence. Sorry, but that kind of faith...faith based on evidence...is a shallow faith that is far too easily swayed by what we see AND what we experience!

Edited response:

I can fully understand the position of those who say "I've seen no evidence, so I don't believe". I spent a good portion of my life viewing Christianity from that window so I know exactly what the view is from there.

When Jesus walked the earth and performed miracles before large crowds there were many who witnessed His work and heard His words first hand and still could not bring themselves to believe. So it should not be a mystery that so many cannot believe today. After all, what evidence do they have?

Or better yet, what evidence are they seeking?

I believe one poster (Insanity) answered that question perfectly when he said that he cannot believe in God because he’s never "felt God". THIS is the evidence that many are actually seeking but only a few find. Even Thomas who was listed among the Lord’s disciples could only bring himself to believe in the resurrection after he had “felt” the physical evidence with his own hands. (John 20:24-28)

But if Thomas lived today, would he still be counted among our Lord’s believers? I believe he would because even in his unbelief he took the steps to seek the evidence and didn't stop until he "felt" it. Every message in the New Testament is a lesson in how the unbelieving world will respond to God’s Word and how we can still reach the many Thomas’s of today.

Since the morning Thomas touched the Lord’s wounds, no unconvinced person has found evidence of our Lord Jesus anywhere in the physical world and that is where those who have totally closed their hearts are focusing their attention. So attempting to convince them on an intellectual level is wasted effort. That's why they mock such questions as yours here. One may as well pound a Bible on a vault door.

Just as you and I were not convinced by any physical evidence neither shall anyone else be today. We were convinced because we opened our hearts and accepted God’s evidence in. And that is how others will come to know God too.

Hebrew 11:1 tells us …

“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

Our faith in God is the substance of what the seeking world hopes for.

Our faith in Jesus Christ is the evidence of what the seeking world cannot see.

For those who have taken that short step away from that window of total disbelief to seek the Lord; all that is required to find their evidence is a truly open and sincerely repentant heart. And with the tiniest bit of faith, God WILL give come into their heart and give them their evidence. (Mark 4:30-32)

God has promised it…

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” (Rev 3:20)

God Bless and keep the good questions coming. ;)

Teresa

Thanks for your question, it is another thought provoking one isn't it?

First I would like to share a scripture:

2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

We can see from this scripture that everything you can physically see with your eyes are temporary. But the invisible things ( the things you can't see with your physical eyes ) are eternal.

I feel like those invisible things is what you were talking about in your question, those things that God has made and has also declared they will last forever. As we look around we can see the earth and how it is now, and we know that one day it too will be changed ( Rev. 21:1 ), and even our own body that is so wonderfully made, as believers in Jesus our bodies will be changed in an instant. ( I Corinthians 15:51-54 ) God has giving us all souls and those souls will live forever,

there are only two places that people spend eternity. In Heaven with God, or in Hell without God forever. God has no pleasure in people going to Hell, that is why He sent His Son Jesus Christ to take your punishment on the cross, Jesus paid the price for the sins of the world to reconcile us to God. God raised Jesus from the dead, and Jesus is alive sitting at the right hand of God. God does take pleasure in a sinner that turns to Him, and believes on Him and His Son Jesus Christ.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Hello Sister,I see we still have our unbelievers standing instead of on God's promises their own refusals to accept the one true, real love....Sis faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen which certainly is what you are explaining in your post a very good post I might add,we have faith that we can breathe,that our heart is going to beat and it stands to reason as long as we live we have the portion of faith that God said was dealt to every man......God Bless you and yours sister and thank you

Yes, I have experienced the reality of God so many times throughout my life. As I look back over my life, I see His hand that has planned and guided. I have collected so much 'evidence' of Him working in my life. "For we know that all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose." Romans 8 v 28

Let me share a little - of the beginning.

I was born into a family who were not Christians, and when I was just

11 days old my mom had a severe stroke, which left her physically and

mentally impaired. My dad had his work cut out, as I was the second

of their children, my sister was just 6 years old. He was left with

the demands of raising her, and looking after my mom full time, as

well as a new baby. For a few days after my birth, I was handed

around the family. There was no shortage of family, as my mom alone

had 5 sisters and 6 brothers.

Unknown to my parents, one of my mothers sisters (Phyllis), who was

the only Christian in the large family, had a word from the

Lord....saying 'Take this child, and nurse it for me'. Now Phyllis

and her husband already had two children of their own, and up until

that time, had decided their family were complete....but the Lord had

different plans!!!!

There were some of my moms siblings and their husbands, who were

unable to have children of their own, so the natural thing, would

have been for me to go and live with one of them. My natural parents

however, wanted me to go to the family where they knew I would be

loved the most, and their natural choice was Phyllis and her husband -

Sid.

The decision was made. The word from the Lord which Phyllis had, and

my own parents choice, came together. I had the privilage of being

brought up in a Christian home. Phyllis and Sid naturally became my

parents also. They loved me as much as they did their own children.

It was at the age of 13, I decided to commit my life to the Lord.

This followed the death of Sid (who I called dad also), he had a

tragic accident whilst working in the coal mines. I knew that He was

with the Lord, and I knew the comfort of that. Five months after this

occurance, my mom suffered another stroke which proved to be fatal.

These two deaths of parents in a short space of time, had an impact

on me which made me think about 'life'. I knew, that I needed the

Savior. I looked at the two families to which I was joined, and knew

that the Lord made Sid and Phyllis life so much richer, and I

wanted that for me....for my life.

The Lord has brought me through lots of difficulties, and sorrows,

but without Him, I would be lost, and helpless. The Lord has given me

beauty for ashes, oil of joy for mourning, and a garment of praise

for the spirit of heaviness. HOW GREAT IS MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I agree. The Holy Spirit moves in us all the time! (We who are saved) And convicts every single one of us! When someone hears the gospel message preached, they are convicted before they are saved, drawn in by the Holy Spirit...which opens their eyes to the truth. When we are saved, even walking in the truth, the minute we begin to wander off the path or do something that goes against God we are convicted, shown our sin, and then we desire to repent and follow the Lord.

For those who think that you cannot really experience God, I differ in opinion to that.

God may not be able to be seen, but we have other senses we can experience Him with. I personally have experienced His presence with my sense of smell, and touch. Yes God has touched me physically many times. In healing me and in just knocking me on the floor to teach me a lesson. He has also healed emotional hurts. That is experience that makes me a believer.

You are so very insightful in this matter.Yes because we experience we do believe.This is the same for science.We can't see gravity ,but rather we experience its effects and in so doing we believe.The reality of GOD is so very similar to the reality of science.True Science and The Word of GOD are the same with the same outcome.Both leed to the mind of GOD.Science has finally proved the existence of GOD and that the TORAH and the 1611 KJV are his communication to us his children..This was done using a supercomputer to find and crack one of the forms of code within the BIBLE.Yes the BIBLE is a code book on many levels.There are codes that even the most powerful computer will never crack.These are understood spiritually as the BIBLE says they are.The HOLY GHOST is given to leed and guide us unto all truth.So yes your beautiful words decribing our experiance are correct. THANK YOU D'S

lack of sensory experience has very little to do with my unbelief - I believe in lots of things I can't see, feel, hear, and so on. This universe is filled with things both large and small that I will never lay eyes on, but I know they are there. The complete lack of any kind of evidence for both Odin, Christian god, and all the other thousands of gods in human history is why I do not believe. Oh, that and the indicators we are looking at some bronze-age superstition made up by primitive man to explain what they could not explain otherwise.

And warm fuzzy feelings and personal experience are a very bad indicator of truth. See also people in an asylum.

When the Holy Spirit has drawn someone to Christ a beautiful experience begins...our spiritman becomes alive. We who believe have had our Spiritman become alive!!!!!!!!!!!

How did this happen...because we were called by He who is Spirit! And we accepted by making a decision based on believing in something unseen. Something unseen and beautiful. God's Holy Spirit touched our lives, our senses and filled us with beauty!

Man is composed of body, soul and spirit.

Our body is physical. Our soul is where our personality lives as does our will. Our will or soul is considered to be the seat of our personality. It is where we make choices and decisions. Thr third and most important part is our Spirit. Our spirit isn't connected to these other parts of man until it is connected to Christ. And in order for us to understand the things of the spirit we first must be reconnected to Him who is Spirit. And that someone is Christ. That is why Jesus said we must be born again. Not physically but spiritually.

When our spirits are born again ...we begin to experience all that is unseen, invisible and real. This part of ourselves does see and feel just as our bodies do! Christ reveals himself to all who have had the born again experience. He becomes food and nourishment to our spiritual man. Unfortunately this part is often not understood by unbelievers but it is the third part of our being and without this part coming alive we are not totally alive. Only two parts are alive. The Body and the Soul. And the third part is left...unfilled and crying to be fulfilled. We are not fully alive until our Spiritman is born. Our sense of self rules us and we cannot understand the beauty or mercies of God in the same way as a man/woman who has experienced Christ. Jesus often spoke of wholeness. The Spirt of Jesus is breathed into us when we accept him as Lord and Saviour. When a non-believer accepts Christ...a beautiful transformation happens....his spirit is made alive because of the breathe of Christ breathed into him and he becomes a new creature. A better form of his old self. His spiritual nature begins to grow and he becomes hungry for the things of God.

Just as our body craves food...our spirit craves spiritual food! And this spiritual nourishment can only come from one who is able to feed us spiritually. That someone is Jesus Christ, who comes into our hearts when we invite him in. He promises us to do so. All we need to do is accept his full plan of salvation. When our Spiritman becomes alive and responsive to God we can see the unseen things of the spirit...all the mysteries of God are opened up and revealed to us by the Holy Spirit who is sent to live and reign within us. Just as the physical parts of our body feels so does our Spiritual man! The Holy Spirit of God is the the one who directs our faith, helps us to see all that God has set before us, he teaches our Spiritual man. He open our eyes and hearts spiritually to see everything God wants us to see. And he never quits on us...he continues to work with us until God' purpose for us is complete. The bible speaks of two kinds of men ...the carnal man...and the spiritman. The carnal man...cannot win in any way without the spiritman helping him. Interesteringly someone here mentions "farting". It's a sound the body makes when it is needing to eliminate food. In essence the body is groaning. Well our spirits groan too! We sometimes have many things stored in our natural man that contaminate us. Feelings of bitterness, anger, hate, rage, loneliness, shame. These are all parts of sin. Our spiritman will groan to God...begging him to help us eliminate these powerful negative feelings,thoughts and emotions. The difference between a believer in God and a non believer is that we have found someone we can call on to help us. He does restore us through his words. He builds faith in us spiritually and we can overcome all sin because of the power he imparts to us upon salvation.

Christ hears these groans and responds to our spiritman and answers these needs. He cleanses us from anything that would hinder life!

Here are some of the things we experience through him and because of Him ~ life giving grace!

Faith, trust, faith experiences, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, credibility, credit, dependence, reliance.

For those who don't belive...I hope we all have helped you see something of how this unseen and invisble presence in us who believe works....!!!!!!!!!!

I know that no one can convince another person to believe in Christ...but His love has changed many lives...for the better! He is the Life Giving, Spirt Giving and is the only way whereby man is truly alive...all three components of man are made whole through the blood sacrifice Christ paid. I hope the Spirit of The Lord has shed some light on this for us all to see!:)

God bless you sis!