If you were in the military and were ordered to fire at American civilians?

''Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.''

~John F. Kennedy

Here I'll put the quote again since most military people don't seem to understand its message (or warning).

''Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.''

~John F. Kennedy

"Just curious as to know what you would do in both instances?"

You are just curious since it's a very possible future scenario (depends on how much more of this crap people will put up with).

User:Charles:

"The US military isn't allowed to fire at American citizens."

Um... go research history a little... things don't have to be legal to be done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

User:Brandy C:

"I have sworn to protect the United States against terrorists, both foreign and domestic"

So if citizens in a so called democracy have a rogue out of control government ignoring the will of the people and the people stand up for there rights they become terrorists?

You might want to reread the constitution there buddy... you know that thing you swore to uphold... the thing that those very citizens would be rioting to try to defend (the very thing you would be going against).

User:Veishan:

"That's the oath a service member takes. I'd say it'd be my duty to open fire on the dissidents if that was the order given."

So if you were ordered to kill 1 million babies in front of there mothers would you? It was an order so apparently using your mindset no logic is involved in your decision... just blind submission to authority... sad.

I find it really funny (actually its more sad then anything) that every veteran answered the question without factoring in WHY the citizens would be doing what they are doing... they just assume its that everyone just one day went nuts for no reason... look around you for god sakes... our rights and freedoms are literally being raped from us more every day.

I just really hope people understand what is about to happen in this country... god help us all (especially with most these peoples mindsets).

User:veishan:

"No such order would ever be given"

Nice assumption... give it a few years... you WILL have to make this decision (unfortunately). People better wake the F*** up to what is going on before we literally relive history.

User:Rangerwannabe26:

"If ordered then yes. Its a soldiers duty to follow his superiors orders regardless of the situation."

Really? Even if that order goes against the constitution and all human logic?

Well lets hope some day your superiors ORDER you to research history (it was an order so you HAVE to do it right? lol) so we can MAYBE avoid what is about to happen in this country... to bad its probably to late.

User:Ronnie:

"Depending on what they are protesting I would make a judgment call and then decide. If they began shooting you would of course shoot back. However if it were a tax revolt or frustrated citizens trying to stop the North American Union then I would join the protesters."

Good answer... but what if 99% of the people are non violent and 1% turn violent (which is usually how it goes) what then? Anyways as I said before you guys should REALLY think about this scenario because as I said with the way things are headed sadly it is a likely (near) future possibility.

according to the soldier creed i would side with the civilians:

I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team.

I serve the people of the United States, and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills.

I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.

but this whole idea is circumstantial because you don't give a full cenerio. if it was 100,000 civilians that were members of a cult that belived in anarchy i'd blow their head off. but if it was members of lets say some new civil rights movement in peacfull protest by standing outside the white house until a change is made then they can feel free to stand there. any hostility towards me or a fellow soldier and i will defend myself against the agressors. but due to the massive amount of money the goverment spends on anti leathal deterants like tear gas bean-bag guns and stun-guns this scenereo would probably never take place and local police and fbi would be involved before military forces got involved

Brandy C makes the point. But then what defines a 'terrorist?'

I think Obama is an economic terrorist who is sabotaging our nation to fail. Will Brandy C go shoot him?

Or will Brandy C come shoot me for holding a sign at a tea party on a day when Obama proclaims protesters 'terrorists?' I think this scenario will be tested BEFORE people are armed at the steps of the capital.

If we had a civil uprising anywhere in the US, (for instance 10,000 unarmed protesters blocking the ports from Mexico). I have no doubt that the National Guard if not regular Army will be dispatched, and if they don't quickly gain control of the situation, orders to kill will be given. So will they?

I don't believe that every soldier would fire on his fellow countrymen, but I think some will.

Blue bellies weren't given that name in the civil war for no reason!

History tends to repeat itself...hang on to your hat!

I wouldn't, mostly because I can't fire a gun to save my life, lol. I'm not in the military - yet - but their duty is to follow orders from the person in charge. It isn't the soldier's job to make the decision. Also, you are asking the wrong people. Not EVERYONE would be sent to such scenario without the correct preparation. So this question wouldn't apply to many. It all depends on the circumstances. I mean, you would probably be in favor of the military opening fire against the civilians if those protesters were putting your family's life in danger, don't you think? Someone needs to bring order in a situation like that one, and obviously, if the civilians aren't retreating and are armed, they should know they're asking for A LOT of trouble.

I spent 36 years in the military, and I would not fire on American civilians if order to. Everyone in the military knows what an illegal order is. The US military supports the American people, not criminals in Washington.

At the same time, American people who throw things at the military or at police officers are doing exactly what our globalist "masters" want. They are trying to drive a wedge between the American people, and the police and military. Attacking the military or law enforcement is not only stupid, it turns them against us.

Armed protesters attacking the Capital is exactly what the globalists would like. This is what they did at the WTO meeting several years ago. They hired thugs to commit illegal acts, turning law enforcement against lawful, non-violent protesters.

We want the police and the military on our side. We need to maintain the moral high ground. We cannot get involved in violent and/or illegal actions. And when we see others committing them, we need to photograph them, and bring them to the attention of LOCAL law enforcement.

Don't get involved in stupid illegal activity. This just plays into the hands of our globalist friends.

First of all - US law and military regulations forbid the military from carrying automatic weapons in a 'civil disturbance' situation. In fact - in your first example the soldiers will be armed with 'non-lethal' weapons while a few designated snipers (who will literally be standing next to a comissioned officer and only allowed to shoot if given a lawfur order to do so from that officer) standing by to ensure that the civilians do not bring any guns to the party themselves.

On the second scenatio - we would have an armed group attempting to overthrow the US government in violation of the US Constitution. In this case they would have a choice: surrender or die.

It depends greatly upon the circumstances. In the first case no, it would be an unlawful order to use deadly force when your own life or the lives of others is not in jeopardy.

In the second case it would totally depend upon the political situation at the time and if the uprising were constitutional. I have sworn to uphold the Constitution.

Excuse me Brian: I find it really funny (actually its more sad then anything) that every veteran answered the question without factoring in WHY the citizens would be doing what they are doing...

I believe I did exactly that.

SFC

US Army

Retired

Well, I'm not in the Military, but I will tell you psychologically that I and everyone who answered would indeed do what were ordered to in such a situation.

It's the romantic notion that our morals and ethics will always prevail that leads to such unfortunate things like PTSD.

An ideal solider or riot cop is not trained to think rationally or morally when he is given an order.

In truth, we are trained in this way from childhood. Marching in a band and pep rallies where the most enthusiastic fervor is rewarded has a much darker purpose than we would be comfortable understanding.

Surely, even follow the leader is more than a simple child's game. It is well known that toys are designed to teach us about the world around us and our place in it.

The incessant thoughts that cause us to hesitate either out of fear or moral objection vanish when one is properly trained to obey orders without question. I yell "STOP" or "FREEZE" and almost every person in the room stops whatever they are doing. Those that stopped are those that have a greater proclivity to follow orders ingrained into their subconscious. After all, a cop says both not because he expects the suspect to think "Wow, he's right, I need to cooperate with him for both of our benefits." No, he says it because in the minds of most people, it's a reaction to freeze or hesitate when such things are suddenly yelled.

So now, we come back to your original question.

"If you were in the military and were ordered to fire at American civilians, would you?"

To that, I would say "Yes".

It has nothing to do with my morality-as I would never do such a thing had I not been drilled to that point.

However, when my morality is that of the state...any order form that state trumps all.

If some bit of my original morality were present, I might only hesitate. It depends on how deeply I am drilled into my new "morality" that of the state which orders me to do so.

At the My Lai Massacre-what number of American soldiers would have committed those acts when ordered to had they not been drilled to that point?

For a lack of discipline might have made more men stand up and say, "No, this is wrong!". But sadly, few did that.

While My Lai is often pointed to as a result of poor discipline, it is in fact the very opposite.

So the true factor is this-

How much of your mind is YOURS and how much is THEIRS?

THAT will determine more than anything-if you pull that trigger.

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Many of you are missing the point.

That it violates a creed or law is irrelevant. That in your normal state of being-with your own morality as you have it now would never do such a thing-is irrelevant.

In this question, you are the solider/riot cop. You are trained to obey orders without question-not to sit back and logically and morally consider your options.

It is strictly illegal for US military to act against US citizens.

But like a lot of the constitution, that is completely ignored lately.

The oath taken by soldiers to defend the constitution "against all enemies foreign and domestic" is itself unconstitutional. It's an invalid oath. But nobody ever notices that. Nobody tries to leave out the word "domestic."

Nobody takes the issue to the Supreme Court. People would rather argue till the end of time about terminating pregnancies and other trivial stuff.

If I were in the army in that case, it would depend on what the civilians wanted. If they were neo-nazis or religious freaks, I would just desert and go join an opposing faction. If they were a faction I agreed with, I would desert and join them.

The prohibition of military action against civilians is intended to protect the ability of the people to remove the government. So is the right to bear arms. Both are basically extinct in practice. The only arms legal to bear are ineffective against military weaponry.

<> one of the most fundamental flaws of psychology is the recurring theme of people acting the same. PTSD happens to people who aren't prepared for the various traumas they endure. Others, who have already been through traumas and have experienced the many ways in which a group can be collectively full of crap, are much less likely to do as they're told. No way would everybody fire.

In fact, opening fire on unarmed people is an order most people don't instantly obey unless their training breaks down all individual will. In the civil war, most soldiers refused to fire their weapons at some point. Even in world war 2. The training methods introduced during Vietnam were designed to break down that resistance to killing. But that's adult training, not habit from childhood, and it only works on young adults.

Most men have the instinct to kill - but of their own accord. You kill your own enemy, for your own reasons. Killing just because somebody tells you to isn't instinct, it's taught. And since it's taught after childhood, it can be unlearned too. Don't underestimate the number of people who've unlearned enough to do their own thinking and follow noone.

Believe it or not, we use to be trained in the use of non-lethal force. pick-axe handles instead of rifles. A line of soldiers in riot gear, protective masks and swinging axe handles would probably discourage the snowballs, if the CS gas didn't already break up the crowd. If civilians were to rise up against their own soldiers, are they really 'civilians'? You attack your nations soldiers, even with rocks or snowballs, you are still attacking your neighbor and those who have taken an oath to defend you. No we do not randomly fire into a crowd, but we do not lie down and let a mob walk over us.