korban

I've heard different dates from non Catholics, and wonder where they get their information from, because it can't come from a ligitimate source, so has to be a lie, which makes me wonder how can a Christian accept a lie?

Here is one proof of many that is well documented and authentic, and I give it for correction so you will know the true Church founded by Christ.

St Ignatius of Antioch, Bishop, and an Apostolic Father of the Church, wrote a letter to the Smyrneans... 106 AD (apostle of John)

6. Let no one be deceived! Even the heavenly powers and the angels in their splendor and the principalities, both visible and invisible, must either believe in the Blood of Christ, or else face damnation. Let him grasp it who can. Let no rank puff up anyone; for faith and love are paramount--the greatest blessings in the world. Observe those who hold erroneous opinions concerning the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how they run counter to the mind of God! They concern themselves with neither works of charity, nor widows, nor orphans, nor the distressed, nor those in prison or out of it, nor the hungry or thirsty.

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7. From Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness. It would be better for them to have love, so as to share in the resurrection. It is proper, therefore, to avoid associating with such people and not to speak about them either in private or in public, but to study the Prophets attentively and, especially, the Gospel, in which the Passion is revealed to us and the Resurrection shown in its fulfillment. Shun division as the beginning of evil.

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8. You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid.

Not your truth but truth.

as i see it truth is a person (Jesus)

if I want to know truth i do what I do with everything else I want to know I research all the information I can get on the given subject.

What I'm saying is do you as a Christian do the same?

If so have you read all the Church Fathers?

Have you read the Didache ?

Have you read the Apostle of John St. Ignatius Of Antioch ? he was the first mention of the name Catholic church and dates 106 Ad. so we can assume the name Catholic was in use before this.

Here is a list of more.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Church_Father...

These are the first Christians and if you want to know the truth you have to read what the first Christians taught, as the gospels state not everything taught was put in writing, but passed on.

All agree on the Eucharist being the body of Christ as Paul made clear,and all agree on the authority of the Catholic Church.

You have to ask does your church have documents that go back to the first Christians and where did my church come from?

As you can read the Catholic church was founded in the first century and has remained to today as Christ said his church would and that he would be in it.

So not to drag on what is Truth?

If you can't trace what you believe in then it can't be truth as the gospel states hold fast to the traditions handed down, these Fathers recieved this tradition and it has been handed down.

Your truth and the truth can be two different things.

I've noticed for the last few months a bright star, it is south westerly not to high of the horizon, it comes out early in the evening, it is constant and very bright. I'm no way a conspiracy theorist but I was browsing through you tube and ended up in this section about Niburi planet x and some people where discussing this star, very different opinions, but from different parts of the world they noticed it.

I'm just curious to know from people who know what their talking about,

thank you.

Note I know nothing about Astronomy!!!!!!!

Didache ,= teaching, an early Christian work written in Greek, called also The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. Dates for its composition suggested by scholars have ranged from AD 50 to AD 150. Discovered in 1875 by Bryennios, Greek Orthodox metropolitan of Nicomedia, it is an invaluable primary source for the primitive church. The first part is a collection of moral precepts, perhaps based on rabbinical teachings (there are many quotations from the Old Testament); the second portion gives directions for baptism and the Eucharist; the third contains directions for bishops and deacons.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html

you can read it here.

Saint Ignatius He was the Bishop of Antioch in the early second century. He was condemned to die in Rome during the persecutions and was fed to the lions of Rome’s coliseum (AD 107) and afterward his body was transported back to Antioch. Ignatius is one of the closest links we have with the apostolic church; the question is why does he hold such a high view of the Eucharist if the Apostles didn’t? He did, after all, claim to receive what he taught from the apostle John, did he purposefully lie? I think not.

While on his journey to Rome he wrote seven letters to seven churches. After reading these letters one thing is noticeable, his high view of the Eucharist. The Sacrament is the beating heart of his teachings. He echoes the sacrificial language employed in the Didache when he speaks of the church as “the place of sacrifice” where the episcopos (bishop) presides over the Eucharist. For Ignatius the church received its unity in Christ during table worship (e.g. the Eucharist). A sacramental ontology of the church, if you wish.

Ignatius marked those who deny the real presence as abject heretics “because they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer; because they do not confess the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.” (Smyrnaeans, 7). This is where it gets real interesting for those who deny the real presence; Ignatius said they should not even be served the Eucharist as doing so would precipitate spiritual death. (1 cor 11-28:30) In him we also find an undertone of the necessity of apostolic succession; “let that be deemed a proper Eucharist which is administered either by the bishop or by one to whom he has entrusted it.” (Ibid., 8). So in sum, Mass, for Ignatius, is not valid unless it is offered and accepted as the real presence of Christ by a bishop (or a priest entrusted by the bishop) in succession The underlying idea is that all apostolic teaching is not contained in the Scripture and therefore we must employ tradition to aid in our understanding. Just to clarify before I’m called a heretic, I do believe the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments contain everything necessary for life and salvation in Christ. They do not, however, tell us everything; this is why we employ tradition. As Ignatius traveled to Rome his concern was for a Eucharistic theology;

just thought you might like to know what the first Christians where being taught and believed.

thoughts....

if as nearly all believe the dead go to heaven if they died in Christ,what is it they do there?

The Catholic view is they are still in the body of Christ as death is swallowed up in the victory of the cross.

this of course means they live more fully than us and if angels can hear our prayer Matt 18-10 and present them Rev 8-4 as an offering

to God, how is it those in Heaven can't hear our prayers?

My understanding of scripture is that if not here then in Heaven we become one with God (Christ) and saying they can't hear us or do anything is like saying Christ can't hear us or do anything.

Can anyone say the saints in heaven are not in Christ?

Can you say they have no part in his body?

Can you say that Christ's body is not living in heaven?

If not then you have only one option that is to believe the living in heaven still work in the body and offer up prayers on the alter as the saints on earth do.

Please refrain from saying the dead go into the grave to wait the Resurrection, that is ignorance of scripture.

Thank you, hope you can explain.

Icon of our Lord Jesus Christ Not Made by Hands, by St. Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich, Ohrid Prologue

In the time that our Lord was preaching the Gospel and healing every disease and every infirmity among the people, there was in the city of Edessa, on the banks of the Euphrates, a certain Prince Avgar, who was riddled with leprosy. He heard of Christ, the Healer of every pain and sickness, and sent a portrait-painter, Ananias, to Palestine with a letter to Christ, in which he begged the Lord to come to Edessa and heal him of his leprosy. In the event of the Lord's not being able to come, the prince commanded Ananias to paint His likeness and bring it, believing that the portrait would heal him.

Lord replied that he could not come, as the time of His Passion was at hand, and He took a napkin and wiped His face, leaving a perfect reproduction of His most pure face on the napkin. Lord gave this napkin to Ananias, with a message to say that the prince would be healed by it, but not entirely, and He would therefore send him later an envoy who would rid him of the remainder of the disease.

Receiving the napkin, Avgar kissed it and the leprosy fell from his body, with just a little remaining on his face. Later, the Apostle Thaddaeus, preaching the Gospel, came to Avgar, healed him secretly and baptized him. Then the prince smashed the idols that stood at the city's gateway and placed the napkin with the face of Christ above the entrance, stuck onto wood, surrounded with a gold frame and ornamented with pearls. Prince also wrote above the icon on the gateway: "O Christ our God, no-one who hopes in Thee will be put to shame".

Later, one of Avgar's great-grandsons restored idolatry, and the Bishop of Edessa came by night and walled-in the icon above the gateway. Centuries passed. In the time of the Emperor Justinian, the Persian King, Chozroes, attacked Edessa, and the city was in great affliction. Bishop of Edessa, Eulabius, had a vision of the most holy Mother of God, who revealed to him the secret of the icon, walled in and forgotten. Icon was found, and by its power the Persian army was defeated.

Icons were used in the first centuries of Christianity, first as an object of decoration or private devotion, and later exposed in Christian churches for public veneration. Apocryphal writings of the second century relate that the icon of the Blessed Mother painted by St. Luke was the first icon. According to another legend, Jesus himself gave and "image of His sacred face," called the Icon Made Without Hands ("Nerukotvorennyj Obraz"), to the Apostle Thaddeus, who used it for miraculous healing and the conversion of the Chaldean King Abgar of Edessa (cf. Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. I, 13). Although these are only legends, nevertheless they confirm an historical fact that in the East the veneration of icons originated in the Syro-Palestinian region, the cradle of Christianity.

Can Catholics see Mary as a God if all they ever ask her for is prayer?

Like pray for me that Christ will have mercy on me..........

How can it be said she is thought of as a Deity to be worshipped when she is always asked to pray for........... never to grant a request but to ask on behalf of.

The same as all the Saints only held to be the highest and greatest of Saints.. If you say we can't pray to the dead, then why did Jesus say God is God of the living not the dead? Where did Moses and Elijah come from?

Why did paul struggle with staying or going to be with the Lord?

Why does Revelation speak of the Saints around the throne, the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise, is paradise the grave?

Scripture is clear that the righteous go to Christ to be with him after death, as it is clear that we are the body of Christ, can the body of Christ remain in the grave?

If you accept this then you have to accept that Mary along with the other Saints are in heaven with Christ and as Christ is still at work it's only right his body is too, so what work do they do? if not pray for us around the throne as the book of revelation states.

Thoughts please.

You all say that Catholics added to the bible, seven books, yet this has no basis and is very wrong, Here's why, 2 reasons first is that the dead sea scrolls uncovered these books which proves they where part of the old testament and read by Jews and Christ and his Apostles

Second The Catholic Old Testament follows the Alexandrian canon of the Septuagint the Old Testament which was translated into Greek around 250 B.C. The Protestant Reformers follows the Palestinian canon of Scripture (39 books), which was not officially recognized by Jews until around 100 A.D.

Prior to Jesus’ time, the Jews did not have a sharply defined, universal canon of Scripture. Some groups of Jews used only the first five books of the Old Testament (the Pentateuch); some used only the Palestinian canon (39 books); some used the Alexandrian canon (46 books), and some, like the Dead Sea community, used all these and more. The Palestinian and Alexandrian canons were more normative than the others, having wider acceptance among orthodox Jews, but for Jews there was no universally defined canon to include or exclude the “deuterocanonical” books around 100 A.D.

The Apostles commissioned by Jesus however, used the Septuagint (the Old Testament in Greek which contained the Alexandrian canon) most of the time and must have accepted the Alexandrian canon. For example, 86 percent of Old Testament quotes in the Greek New Testament come directly from the Septuagint, not to mention numerous linguistic references. Acts 7 provides an interesting piece of evidence that justifies the Apostolic use of the Septuagint. In Acts 7:14 St. Stephen says that Jacob came to Joseph with 75 people. The Masoretic Hebrew version of Genesis 46:27 says “70,” while the Septuagint’s says “75,” the number Stephen used. Following the Apostles' example, Stephen clearly used the Septuagint (We also know from other ancient Christian documents, like the Didache and Pope St. Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians, that the apostles’ successors not only used the Septuagint, but quote from all of the books in the Alexandrian canon as the authoritative word of God.)

So your opinion of these seven books is very wrong, and in these books it clearly states that we should pray for our dead, so that's not all you have wrong.

Thoughts.

What do you feel the effects of Vatican two have been?

The laity and Religious and the Mass.

I'm 39 so i never attended the traditional.

Thank you.

In Zeitoun, with thousands of testimonies and miracles, scientists doctors every faith all agree what they experienced was the image of

a woman radiant in light appear on the church the same day the muslims painted red crosses on the doors of Christians for a sign of who they where so as that night they could be identified so they could be killed.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QI_0nh7Tg10

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbg65NK_wGI

I know some will try to discredit this but note the police searched for a long time to find something but couldn't, they turned off the electricity for a 15 mile radius, to make sure it was not a projection.

3 years this went on.

this is proof that God sends to us Mary to show us how wrong the world is about God. And it's only one of many.

How do you debunk this great sign? with reason and logic.

If our partners have had sex out side of the marriage.

I've seen it said many times here but can't see where it comes from.

I know Jesus speaks of an illicit marriage which means Illegal, is this what they use to mean we can divorce?

Since Jesus corrected Moses saying He gave us this law because people where hard hearted,But Christ himself said we could not divorce.

Am I right here or am I missing something.

Thanks.

The one verse used is that Paul rebuked Peter, yet Paul himself says

For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:14-25a)

No man is infallible and the Church does not stand on a man but Christ.

Peter taught the life and death of Christ but God used Paul to correct a mistake,So what!

If the Church Christ founded depended on men instead of th Holy Spirit then the under world would have over powered it long ago, since the Church Christ founded is lead in truth by the Holy Spirit she still stands

Despite the many attempts to over power it from with in and out.

So fighting the Choice of Christ by useing Paul as a better candidate is saying Christ made a mistake and picked a sinner, yet Paul clearly states he to is a sinner. So who should hrist have built his Church on seeing all where and are sinner's?

Over John? John was the one he loved most, John was the one that stood at the feet of the Cross.

So why Build the Church on Peter?

Seeing the disciple that Jesus Loved, Peter said what about him?

Jesus said what does it matter, YOU are to follow me!

Did Jesus pick Peter or was he following the will of his Father who choose to reveal to Peter who Christ was?

Was it at the moment he professed faith in Christ?

After professing, Christ said My Father revealed to YOU ..... So I now say to YOU: YOU are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church.

And the Gates of hell can never overpower it. I will give YOU the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.

And who now holds the keys since Hell has not overpowered it?

Since there are so many Christian faiths teaching different things?

Do you think a Magisterium is a good idea?

The Catholic Church has always said these are false doctrines, yet they are a division in Christianity.

My Question is since these false teachings come from the Man who claimed Christ a sinner,claimed the commandments should not be followed,, who claimed good works a sin who claimed he would rather kill a Jew than Baptise one etc etc, Just how reliable is this teaching coming from Luther, who openly said he killed peasants because they where worthless.

Does this sound like a man sent from God?

Can A man claiming to be acting in the Spirit of God call Christ a sinner?

Christ taught: “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

Luther in speaking of the commandments teaches: "Their only purpose is to show man his impotence to do good and to teach him to despair of himself

“Thou shalt not covet,’ is a commandment which proves us all to be sinners; since it is not in man’s power not to covet, and the same is the drift of all the commandments, for they are all equally impossible to us.” -

"Moses is an executioner, a cruel lictor, a torturer a torturer who tears our flesh out with pincers and makes us suffer martyrdom . . . Whoever, in the name of Christ, terrifies and troubles consciences, is not the messenger of Christ, but of the devil . . . Let us therefore send Moses packing and for ever."

“We must remove the Decalogue out of sight and heart” (De Wette 4, 188).

“It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe.”

“If we allow them - the Commandments - any influence in our conscience, they become the cloak of all evil, heresies and blasphemies

Are you still believing this was a man sent by God to free you from the Catholic Church?